Cardinals & Asian Stone Q's - Betta Fish and Betta Fish Care
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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 09:00 PM Thread Starter
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Cardinals & Asian Stone Q's

I'm wondering about experiences with two species:
1. Hara jerondi-I'd get 3 (https://aquaticarts.com/collections/...-mini-catfish; msjinkzd also has a species spotlight on them)
2. Cardinal tetra (in sufficient school size to minimize nippiness)

I'm looking for: (1) a bottom feeder fish, and (2) a colorful fish. Ideally both of these would be Asian (and not Amazonian) as I try to keep it loosely Asian, but I'm getting more open minded.

I've got a very peaceful male betta (big change from my last guy who didn't even tolerate a nerite!) in a well planted 20 long, along with many red cherry shrimp he seems not to notice and 13 celestial pearl danios (who he also seems oblivious to), plus 3 snail species.

1. Bottom feeders: Otos scare me (they might starve- not a ton of algae, although I do have some), I like pygmy cories but hear reports that really sensitive also. I noticed the Hara jerdoni mini catfish and see some sites recommending them with bettas. Has anyone kept them? Any issues there?

2. Colorful mid-to-top fish, The celestial danios are interesting behaviorally. They're have individual personalities, a neat male-show-off-dance, they're inquisitive, more independent than schoolers. But for some reason, in my tank, they're just kinda...not colorful. My son LOVES cardinal tetra and wants them. I prefer rasboras and danios to tetras, in general, but I'm warming to the idea. But I'd need to get at least 12 to minimize nippiness, right?...and 12 cardinals plus 13 CPDs feels like a lot for a 20g tank (it's over-filtered and parameters are always 0/0/0, but swimming space, etc.) Thoughts? Ideas? I might just get more CPD's...

Thanks!
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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 09:22 PM
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What about Neons instead of Cardinals? They are much smaller.

I hate to say it, but Hara jerdoni are one of the few species I've not been able to keep that well. They are also nocturnal so you won't see much of them. I have a bubble wand with "Moonlight" LEDs or I'd not have known they were there. If I were doing it again I'd get at least six but probably more as I don't think even six is enough for them to feel secure. I know AA thinks three is enough for a shoal but they are among the minority.

If you don't mind live or frozen food, Dario Dario are great little fish. They stay near the bottom and do like a wad of Java Moss or Subwassertang for a hang-out.

Oto spend most of their time on the sides of the aquarium and you can supplement feed them with blanched vegetables or seaweed sheets. Your son would probably enjoy watching them gather. Or, you could get Amano Shrimp. But remember, not all algae eaters eat all algae so you might have to supplement feed any you buy.

Aquatic Arts also has Vampire and Bamboo Shrimp. Have you thought about those? I loved Larry the Vampire Shrimp; he lived three years in my 20 long with various Betta with no issues. When I make my order from AA I'm going to order three for my 20 long. Might also buy a couple for my divided 20 as well.

Hope this helps.
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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-08-2017, 05:46 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Russell! - thanks for the input, very helpful! If Hara jerondi are (a) hard to keep and (b) largely nocturnal "wouldn't know they're there" species, then I'll pass.

SO:

1. I love Dario dario. Have you kept them? Fascinating, gorgeous fish. The last time I tried, I got a beautiful healthy bunch from AA, but they didn't eat for the first three days and I got nervous and gave them away, but I'm wondering whether it was too soon. I tried all kinds of frozen food, including waving and positioning frozen bloodworms (which AA said they'd been eating) in front of individuals with tongs. I have pond and MTS nails, though, and they spent lots of time poking in the sandy substrate (dirt underneath)- dunno if maybe they were finding critters on their own? I can't manage live, but I have plenty of frozen food. Have you found that they:
-take a few days to eat in a new tank?
-Eventually will eat frozen food vs just live?
-And, just to ask, I'd get them either way- the unlikely holy grail, ever transition to flake or freeze dried or pellets?

2. Re Otos and supplementation: I really enjoy watching Otos in others' tanks. My concern has been how to feed them- that if I put blanches veggies or seaweed in the tank, the pond snails/MTS will go happily crazy with it and explode in population. So I've never tried it, although I bet my nerite would be quite happy to see some. Have you ever tried blanches veggies in a tank w snails? Maybe the snails wouldn't go for seaweed?

3. Bamboo shrimp- have never looked into those before. Look neat! (Vampire look a little too big, but also really neat.) Bamboo shrimp do fine with RCS? No grabbing betta fins (ours is a veiltail) or small fish like CPD's? Would you recommend two, or could I start with one? (And do the small ones just grow into big ones, do you know, or does AA have two different variants? I can ask them, of course). EDIT: Nevermind- just saw they're filter feeders, so should be OK peacefulness-wise.

4. If I don't go for the Dario or the otos-do you think 6 cardinals could do OK? Or would I really need 12 (their happiness, happy females, lifespan, not nipping bettas all matter to me). Might get 12 neons, but I've heard that they're not as hardy and nippier, perhaps just anecdotal and not accurate...

Thanks!

Last edited by MadtownD; 01-08-2017 at 05:53 PM.
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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-08-2017, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadtownD View Post
Hi Russell! - thanks for the input, very helpful! If Hara jerondi are (a) hard to keep and (b) largely nocturnal "wouldn't know they're there" species, then I'll pass.

SO:

1. I love Dario dario. Have you kept them? Fascinating, gorgeous fish. The last time I tried, I got a beautiful healthy bunch from AA, but they didn't eat for the first three days and I got nervous and gave them away, but I'm wondering whether it was too soon. I tried all kinds of frozen food, including waving and positioning frozen bloodworms (which AA said they'd been eating) in front of individuals with tongs. I have pond and MTS nails, though, and they spent lots of time poking in the sandy substrate (dirt underneath)- dunno if maybe they were finding critters on their own? I can't manage live, but I have plenty of frozen food. Have you found that they:
-take a few days to eat in a new tank? [Sometimes they do.]
-Eventually will eat frozen food vs just live? [I do a mix of live and frozen. Fishguy_1955 on AquaBid is my supplier. I love, love, love him. Generous portions. Send a PM and I'll give you Paul's email.]
-And, just to ask, I'd get them either way- the unlikely holy grail, ever transition to flake or freeze dried or pellets? [Since I feed strictly frozen or live in all of my tanks I've never tried to transition. I am getting six for my 20 long. They really like Java Moss or Subwasstertang.]

2. Re Otos and supplementation: I really enjoy watching Otos in others' tanks. My concern has been how to feed them- that if I put blanches veggies or seaweed in the tank, the pond snails/MTS will go happily crazy with it and explode in population. So I've never tried it, although I bet my nerite would be quite happy to see some. Have you ever tried blanches veggies in a tank w snails? Maybe the snails wouldn't go for seaweed? [I keep Assassin Snails so pond and MTS don't have a chance. My Nerite, however, seem to be safe from the Assassin Snails. If you notice an overpopulation you can add a piece of lettuce and remove it when covered. I throw the snails outside for the birds.]

3. Bamboo shrimp- have never looked into those before. Look neat! (Vampire look a little too big, but also really neat.) Bamboo shrimp do fine with RCS? No grabbing betta fins (ours is a veiltail) or small fish like CPD's? Would you recommend two, or could I start with one? (And do the small ones just grow into big ones, do you know, or does AA have two different variants? I can ask them, of course). EDIT: Nevermind- just saw they're filter feeders, so should be OK peacefulness-wise. [I kept two Vampire Shrimp in my 20 long. Larry was 5" when he died; Matilda was around 4". The trick to seeing hidden critters is to have a large hollowed log or pipe and face one opening against the front of the tank. When the Vampire or Bamboo decide to hide you can still see them! I have several nice hollow pieces of Cholla so I might try that with the Hara jerdoni when I get them again. It certainly worked for Matilda and Larry.]

4. If I don't go for the Dario or the otos-do you think 6 cardinals could do OK? Or would I really need 12 (their happiness, happy females, lifespan, not nipping bettas all matter to me). Might get 12 neons, but I've heard that they're not as hardy and nippier, perhaps just anecdotal and not accurate... [It's a spin of the wheel on whether Neons or Cardinals will be nippy. I've had tanks with them where the Betta was never bothered; I've had others where I've observed a Neon taking out a caudal chunk.]

Thanks!
I hope that helps. I'm buying more Dario Dario from Rachel (Invertebrates by Msjinkzd - Specializing in invertebrates and micro fish from around the world.) and getting my Vampire Shrimp from Aquatic Arts. In October we were gone for 10 days and my "helpful" neighbor fed the tanks even though I told her the fish would be fine. Even with feeding they would have been okay but she grossly overfed. I lost so many of my Nano fish including my Dario Dario, Neons, CPD, Chili Rasbora, Betta and four of six African Dwarf Frogs. Now I'm building back up.


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Last edited by RussellTheShihTzu; 01-08-2017 at 08:22 PM.
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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 07:03 AM Thread Starter
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Oh, no, that's terrible! Did she not notice they were dying- or perhaps she just came and did a big dump once- ah that's awful. And a betta no less, IME each one is so unique, personality-wise. Sorry to hear that . I would have been sickened. And furious. And then the money. Shipping from AA alone is $35 (makes sense with this cold). I can only imagine coming home to that, ugggghhh. I came home from my last 3-day trip and my filter had pumped 1/3 of my aquarium water onto the floor, which went through the floors and caused problems, but the fish were fine- not at all like what you're dealing with.

Thanks for the info! I don't have an overpopulation problem- I rarely see any of the snails unless I look hard- but just don't know how to feed Otos with snails in the tank that would go for the same food (perhaps a different post). I'll look into that frozen supplier. Your personal experience w neons/cardinals and Hara and shrimp is very helpful. Mskinkzd's her individual attention and knowledge is second to none, and she's done great things for the hobby in so many ways. I tried buying from her once, CPD fish she had bred, and they all died within a few days (established tank, clean parameters, etc)- so that was an expensive lesson. I don't blame her- buying fish is always so hit and miss, online or not.

I think I'm going to risk the Dario and try frozen foods and hope they'll eat it. And not stress if it takes them a few days to eat. Busy looking into how others have fed them...

Thanks again!
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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 08:36 AM Thread Starter
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OK- I'm going for Dario dario and a bamboo shrimp, wish me luck :)
@Russell : I appreciate the info- I'd never heard of bamboo shrimp before. Hope your restocking efforts go well, sorry you lost all those guys.

Last edited by MadtownD; 01-10-2017 at 08:47 AM.
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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 08:52 AM
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Thank you. Keep me/us posted on how they do. Filter feeders are the most interesting critters.

FWIW, I have found since going to 99% frozen and live that fins heal much faster....sometimes those shipped Betta nip their fins.


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