Are bettas capable of affection/trust? - Page 8 - Betta Fish and Betta Fish Care
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post #71 of 78 (permalink) Old 09-14-2012, 04:00 PM
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Gee. You're an early riser! But you're right about those adorable little elephant-nosed guys. Smartest fish in the teleosts. Most of the research on fish intelligence has been done on them and how they use electroreception. There is an interesting career path for you: study mormyrids! You would finally get your elephant fish!
School!
Haha, that would be pretty awesome. They are such cool fish, I wouldn't mind hoards of them to study.

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post #72 of 78 (permalink) Old 09-14-2012, 04:03 PM
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School!
Haha, that would be pretty awesome. They are such cool fish, I wouldn't mind hoards of them to study.
I have this image of them doing synchronized swimming routines for you!

Hordes of cute and smart!

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post #73 of 78 (permalink) Old 09-14-2012, 04:15 PM
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Like these guys.

taking a break from fish-keeping.
3 lovely male betta still keep me company.
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post #74 of 78 (permalink) Old 09-14-2012, 05:11 PM
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Even emotions (or, according to the declaration, their “neural substrates”) are not dependent on an animal having particular brain structures, such as our cortex, after all. In fact, many other neural regions are activated when we emote and “are also critically important for generating emotional behaviors in animals,” the scientists noted.
As I was saying before, there are a few definitions of emotion. One requires only basal reactions such as fear and anger. The other such as love, admiration, etc. require a higher-order mammal to use its cortex to transpose its basal reactions into a complex emotion. Your betta doesn't "get mad at you" like a friend does when you don't share your lunch with them, they show pure aggression towards an intruder. They are not "happy" when you come into the room with food, they recognize you as the caregiver and bringer of food, so they come swimming up to the front of the tank to guarantee their chance at food. When instead you do not actually feed them, they don't sulk, they just resume their business.

As for all the things regarding "oh my betta recognizes its favourite food bottle" "oh my betta doesn't like my boyfriend". It is simply because the betta has learned -- Through simple Pavlovian learning, that you are the caregiver, and the food bottle is representative of food, or the conditioned stimulus.

I, as a scientist myself, will stand with koimaiden. One or two articles from a "science blog" don't really mean too much, IMO.

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post #75 of 78 (permalink) Old 09-14-2012, 06:03 PM
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I'm glad I'm not a scientist and have to worry about all that stuff. I love my fish whether they csn show feelings or not.
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post #76 of 78 (permalink) Old 09-14-2012, 08:46 PM
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As I was saying before, there are a few definitions of emotion. One requires only basal reactions such as fear and anger. The other such as love, admiration, etc. require a higher-order mammal to use its cortex to transpose its basal reactions into a complex emotion. Your betta doesn't "get mad at you" like a friend does when you don't share your lunch with them, they show pure aggression towards an intruder. They are not "happy" when you come into the room with food, they recognize you as the caregiver and bringer of food, so they come swimming up to the front of the tank to guarantee their chance at food. When instead you do not actually feed them, they don't sulk, they just resume their business.

As for all the things regarding "oh my betta recognizes its favourite food bottle" "oh my betta doesn't like my boyfriend". It is simply because the betta has learned -- Through simple Pavlovian learning, that you are the caregiver, and the food bottle is representative of food, or the conditioned stimulus.

I, as a scientist myself, will stand with koimaiden. One or two articles from a "science blog" don't really mean too much, IMO.
I would consider the Francis Crick Conference more than just a "science blog."

http://fcmconference.org/

Prana (deep blue/purple CT female) Fluval Spec 2

Qi (turquoise CT female) 5 g riparium

Vanilla Beast (Ivory apple snail diffusa), Watson and Crick (Amano shrimp), Tributary (Moss Ball aka AquaTribble) Fluval Spec V

Pond and ramshorn snails (so many!) 2.5 g

Mr. And Mrs. Smith (assassin snails) 0.5 QT tank

Leopard ramshorns 16oz NPT Mason Jar

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post #77 of 78 (permalink) Old 09-14-2012, 11:05 PM
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I was referring to the "article" on the cephalopods. Thekoimaiden pointed out the same thing.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...s-declaration/

The Author who wrote this "article" is merely a journalist. It is not the full scientific paper, but it's like she just summarizes the abstracts of a few articles.

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post #78 of 78 (permalink) Old 09-17-2012, 12:41 PM
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I am not sure that just declaring something to be out of the realm of possibility makes it so.

Many things that in the past were declared to be impossible have been shown to be possible, even though highly unlikely.

Even fish behavior.

It may be that no one has done a study on betta fish yet.

It may be that any study is inherently biased depending on the unconscious conditioning of the persons involved in it.

That might make something appear to be impossible, depending on one's personal background and ways of reasoning.
Sorry if this response is a bit late, I had a busy weekend. XD

You are both right and wrong.

There was a point when humans thought the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe. Any other model of the universe was considered impossible and just down right wrong. Just because the idea of a round earth orbiting a sun was tossed out as impossible did not make that impossible. In fact, I don't have any links, but I think some astrologist think a black hole could be the center of our universe instead of the sun. So our view of the universe changes time and time again.

Therefore, I agree declaring something out of the realm of possibility does not make it so. The technology we have now would seem impossible and the down right ridiculous to someone from 1960. But that does not change the fact that 7 year olds have phones more powerful than research computers from the 1960.

However, sentience is not one of those things that is constantly changing. There is a barrier between sentient thought and primal thought processes that separates man from animal. Dogs can miss you when you are gone, feel back when scolded, get confused by mixed messages, and express many more emotions. But those are simple emotions. Two dogs that want to mate are going to go at it on the front lawn. It is impossible for a dog to understand that "puppy making" is best left to the dog house because that is a sentient level thought process.

The reason why we can own pets in the first place is because humans are the only sentient animals on this planet capable of feeling abstract emotions.

Now, none of this means fish don't deserve to be loved by humans. I can't count the number of times I've said to Smokey, "Stop wiggle dancing and eat your breakfast before I'm late for work," as if Smokey gets the concept of wiggle dancing, breakfast, or work. So don't think this is just one long, "fish are just fish," rant. I'm just saying that fish are not evolved enough for complex or abstract emotions.
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