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EE breeding

5K views 99 replies 17 participants last post by  indjo 
#1 ·
Years ago, when the veil tails came about, (Long before my "betta life) It was the THING! then they found out how difficult it was for the fish to carry around those very unnatural and heavy fins. So the hobby turned toward shorter fins for the good of the fish.

When the EE first came about, they were very pretty. Added a new dimision and "Flare" to an already gorgeous fish. Now it seems, they are breeding for bigger and longer and frillier pectoral fins. The fish seem to not have control of the outer portions of these fins. I do not own an EE betta. But do love the look of the shorter ones. While watching the videos of the ones with the larger EE fins, they seem to be a bit of a hindrance. An avid swimmer myself, yes, I'm not a fish, I can see it would be a problem to have a "flap" that I cannot control, hanging off the ends of my hands. Just a thought that I wanted to share.
 
#4 ·
Im not a fan of EE either. Personally it makes them look stupid and clownish. Ive seen some fish with pectorals that are way bigger than their caudals, theres no way that can be good for a Betta considering that they use their pectorals constantly when swimming, more so than their other fins.
 
#5 ·
Mattsbettas, yes, he may swim "perfectly normally", but two questions, how big are his "ears, (which they are not ears, they would be arms, if anything) and how much extra energy does he have to exert compared to one with ee in order to swim?

Saphira101, yes it all depends on just how long and large the "veil" is. The fish department manager at the lps near my house is also a member of the fish club. One day when I was in the store, she invited me up to her office to show me her betta. I was SHOCKED! This poor fella had a tail longer than his body. He would swim so that it would drape across the plants and the cavewthat she had in his tank. you could not intise him away from those things if you wanted. I asked her if she takes those things out when she cleans and she said sometimes. When she does, he goes straight to the bottom and waits till she returns them. Never freely swimming around the tank. I felt so sorry for him. Wondered if he would ever discover tail biting. He lived a short two years. Sad. I know she took wonderful care of him, but know it shortened his life.

Just think of what swimming entails. To swim, you are basically pushing yourself against the water to move. When a fish does not have control of a part of their fin, all that part is doing is causing resistance. Like a weight. To say that veiltails are heavy, does not really mean that the tail itself has alot of weight to it. It means that the resistance it creates in the water makes it heavy to drag through the water as they swim.

Think about this. Think about putting socks on your hands, with the ends hanging off the end, and wrapping a sheet around your legs with a couple feet hanging off the end and try to go swimming. That is what it has to be like for these fish with all this extra finage that they cannot control. I think the bettas with short ee is pretty. as long as they can control the whole fin. When we breed we need to keep in mind the life of the fish, and the integrity of the species. We can play around with color, for they are in the safety of our tanks. But the structure of the fish has to come at the priority of what is best for the fish.

Something else that gets me are the "short bodied" bettas. How do we know what they feel, or what they are going through. Sad.
 
#6 ·
I have a HMPK EE, his "ears" aren't too horribly long, and I like him this way. I feel bad for any EE of the longer varieties, like Delta, HM, or Veil, tails and "ears" are just too much in combination.

What's worse is the "Super" EE's, their pectorals are easily twice as big as the standard EE.

Hu (my EE) uses his "ears" a lot in his expression, especially when he flares, and while it's not ideal (then again, a lot of the things we humans breed aren't very helpful to the animals themselves), he's still very beautiful, and active.
 
#7 ·
I love the look of EE bettas with their opaque fins, (dont and wont own one) but its not practical for them at all and I feel horrible that breeders are trying to breed for bigger and bigger fins. I would never do that to my fish!

I have seen them swim "perfectly fine" but I know it has got to take a ton of their energy away to be able to do that. I can't imagine why breeders would purposely breed for that! It shouldn't be allowed. The IBC doesn't have a class for them, luckily, because it makes them dis proportioned. I hope they never allow it. I hope they are just a short fad and people realize its cruel and stop buying them, honestly.


Sorry for being so scatterbrained with this post. My brain apparently doesn't like me right now and won't let me process how I normally would lol
 
#8 ·
As much as I wish that were true, I can think of a few other species of animals where detrimental cosmetics aren't a fad. Like pugs and munchkin cats... both bred for looks, both alterations more detrimental to the animals' health than anything.
 
#9 ·
thats true. I didnt think about that when I posted.

Atleast the IBC doesnt allow them yet. I'm sure eventually they'll show up in variations then have their own class though sadly
 
#10 ·
Like I said, I LOVE Hu, and his "ears" but his are short enough that he doesn't seem to have much (if any) trouble with his fins. The plakat is the only variety I'll keep, it's a compromise for the both of us. Especially since he has places to rest close to the surface if they wear him out.
 
#11 ·
Yes sadly enough the things people breed intentionally is not good for the well being of the animals. It seems, so far at least, that the IBC tends to frown upon things that are not beneficial to the fish. Lets hope they keep this trend.I don't mind the small fin ee just the large ones. Before I ever saw or heard of ee, I had a line of blue bettas that had blue in their pectorals that I intentionally breed for. Never thought someone was breeding for such large pectoral fins.

Yes, its all sorts of animals that we "humans" do this to. They are even changing the dna of things like corn to include proteins. Are you kidding me? corn is not intended to have protein. The Dr. Frankensteins of "human" race.lol (so not funny)
 
#12 · (Edited)
My EEs never have a problem with swimming.. in fact, one especially, never quits. Has no trouble keeping up with a "normal" female in any way, lives alone in a 10g and he swims every inch of it. Fish learn to adapt to what they are given.. like everyone/thing else, they learn to use what they have with little to no trouble as they have been "dealing" with it since birth. Is it normal? No, one of many man made creations. But a strong, healthy betta with big pectorals will get around just fine.

As well as VTs.. they do "drag" a bit more, but if cared for properly they build up their muscles and it's not always a hinder.. also depends on the tank set up - current from a filter will cause a bit more difficulty for them.

This is just my personal opinion/experience.. I respect everyone's opinions. But me personally, I love my EEs and after the spawns I have going now moves to the grow outs, my next ones are going to be EEs. I'm not going for extreme, but EE nonetheless as the ones I have aren't hampered in any way to cause me concern for the well being of the fish I love.
 
#13 ·
I see your point. And agree with you now that I think about it this way about them adapting to what they are given. But, honestly, it still isn't something I would ever purposely breed for. I like the look just like a lot of people do, I just don't like the idea. I want to breed my fish to have the best quality of life possible, and I honestly believe big pectorals lessens that in a way regaurdless on weather or not they adapt to it
 
#14 ·
I can see why you are saying what you are saying.. I just can't look at my fish.. I'll use Kabuki (in the pic above) as an example.. I can't look at him, see him swimming non stop all over his heated/planted 10g with no problems, not having to stop for breaks, easily turns around.. and see that his quality of life is lessened in any way due to having bigger pectoral fins. Fish who are brand new from the store/breeder who were kept in small containers will have issues swimming for a while sometimes - both EEs and non EEs. It takes time to build up their strength.. but if healthy they will be active regardless.

These fish were created for show, all these long finned varieties. They weren't created to be placed in 50 gallon tanks yadda yadda yadda.. they were created to be kept in small aquariums for display/show purposes. These fish aren't disabled, they are just what they are.. beautiful fish that have adapted to swim with what was given to them. They (especially EEs) are visually stunning and beautiful to watch move around and dance.. that is why they are here and are popular. They are beautiful, they were created for our enjoyment. It's human nature to make things "bigger and better", so this doesn't surprise me. But also keep in mind, responsible breeders don't take things to the extreme - a overly heavy/big finned betta don't usually get bred, if they do it's to a tighter finned female to keep the fins in check. These EEs are new and are going to be played with for a while still to come.. but they aren't living a debilitated life.

Kabuki's quality of life is pretty darn good with all he gets, and he shows no weaknesses. Your opinion it lessens their quality of life, my opinion it doesn't make a difference as they don't know anything different other than what they have and they make good use to what was given to them at birth.
 
#15 ·
I completely understand your thinking. But for me it's just not something I would want to do.
 
#16 ·
Well, if you would have read my post carefully, you would have known that my ee is a girl. I wouldn't have pointed that out, but being a girl, she has less finnage to drag around anyways. She is a perfectly healthy and active fish. IMO you are making generalizations about elephant ears.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Some people are going to prefer the EE's, and some won't. And of those that DO, some will like the supers, and some won't. I personally don't like some of the other tail types out there, but that doesn't stop anyone from enjoying them.

Either way, what is popular in the pet trade, and what is with breeders are often nowhere near the same thing. (I've yet to see the AKC show that sanctions Schnoodles and Chorkies) As long as John and Jane Doe walk in off the street and think the "fishy" with the big "ears" is cute, EE's are going to be popular. When the next fad that most breeders hate comes along, it's going to be the same thing. The mass appeal is in the finnage, and like it's been mentioned, people want something unique to put on display.

So, standing here, beating the dead horse probably isn't going to help. Once this fad is done, it's probably going to be something else with bigger fins, or a smaller body, or a mutilated face, or even dying their skin, who knows? Our job as the informed is to do something about it. Start going for the breeders, or the petstores that stock them.

But even after all of this, it doesn't make me wrong for liking what I like, nor does it make you wrong for not liking it, and as long as it's well within reason, and isn't grotesquely hurting the fish (like super heavy finnage) I'm going to enjoy having Hu's "ears" in my life.
 
#19 ·
Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should! Just because a particular fish can adapted to what he was given, does not make it okay knowing he would have had an easier life had he been given something different. If something happens by accident, then yes, I can take comfort in knowing that the fish has adapted to what he has and is being well taken care of. To intentionally breed for "bigger" is not always "better".Years ago, I was breeding a line that had color in the pectorals. They were pretty, but did nothing to the form of the fish. If someone wants to breed ee, why to such extreme? Where does it end? will they keep trying make them bigger and bigger till they are dragging the bottom of the tank? What is ok and what is not? where do you draw the line? Or do you? Just because we think its "pretty"? Just because we want to put something on display? This makes it all okay? I completely and totally disagree!

I was born, unintentionally, with a crooked spine. People who do not know me personally look at me going about my business and never know the pain I am in on a daily basis. Sure, I "LOOK" normal. I "look" like I get along fine, because I have learned to adapt. Because I have no other choice! That is okay, because that is life. It happens. To intentionally inflect a hindrance, an impediment, an obstacle, a handicap, onto another living thing is not acceptable to me. There is no reason to keep making the ee bigger and bigger. NONE! The short ones can be pretty, and as responsible people, we should be accountable for what we do. We should not be so selfish as to think about what we WANT over what is BETTER for something that is living with OUR CHOICES. They are at our mercy. If there is the slightest chance that it is making life harder, if there is the slightest chance theat they must learn to accept what they have been given and adjust, then I have no right to inflict that onto them. My opinion. I will not intentionally breed something into any animal that isn't going to make their life easy-peasy!
 
#23 ·
Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should!
BEFORE:

AFTER:



BEFORE:

AFTER:


BEFORE:

AFTER:

Bred specifically for their looks, and when you check Wikipedia, they have quite the laundry list of heal issues.

BEFORE:

AFTER:


The point of all of those images (despite that they're not bettas), is to reiterate my point: People will breed things to suit their fancies, detrimental to the animal or not.

Your average Joe doesn't give a rip about fish pain, or fish feelings, otherwise they wouldn't have obnoxiously small tanks, and we wouldn't be constantly running into the "just a fish" argument.

I've mentioned the munchkin cat, bred SOLELY for it's appearance. This cat can not act like a normal cat, and are more prone to back injuries.

The pug is a dog who we didn't think looked "good enough" so we bred out it's snout, and bred in wrinkles, and a slew of health issues due to the two.

The bettas at the bottom of the list: The before, wild-type splendens, After, VT EE.

The argument here is that if it WEREN'T for people breeding things to their preferences, we wouldn't have the animals we now have. Would you boycott a pug because it's torture for a dog NOT to have to snout to put it's palet into, and this causes them to choke on their own saliva? Or tell the owners that they're horrible people for encouraging breeders to continue the breed?
Or Himalayan, Sphinx, Bobtail, or Munchkin cats?
Or English Lop rabbits? (they have big ears too)

I'd also like to know how the people who like or breed EE's are any more "cruel" than breeders of short bodied fish, or double tails with shortened spines?

or ANY animal for that matter?

And I agree with Logisticsguy, EE fanciers aren't bad people. Just like VT Fanciers aren't bad, or DT, or Delta, or HM, or CT, or Spade, or Plakat, or any combination thereof.

P.s. that post took a long time to write and google images.
 
#20 ·
With all due respect, you are stating an opinion. We don't even have proof that it is a hindrance to them. Honestly. I see no need for this thread, it is neither providing valuable information or asking a question. Do you personally have experience owning elephant ears?
 
#21 ·
I personally do not find EEs very attractive. But I do appreciate how in just about all EEs their pectoral fins are also vividly colored....and this I definitely find quite attractive as in all other varieties of bettas it is rather rare to have the pectoral fins w/ much color on them at all.
 
#22 ·
One of my Hm males was born with enormous fins. Gigantic as big as Ive ever seen on a betta... So large i wont likely breed him. Not because its hard on him, he swims just fine thank you, but for show it could be too large. Why assume its so awful for these guys to have larger than normal fins. It may take slightly more energy to get around maybe 10% harder but ime betta need exercise too. It is NOT a Handicap. Please dont compare, Ive had to cull fish with crooked spines or deformities and I hate that part of breeding. The EE fish Ive seen, currently dont have one myself seem to move just fine. They are in a tiny aquarium not the ocean. More important is the care of the fish, water quality, regular tank cleaning with a healthy diet. Why paint everyone with unusually large fins on the fish as somehow being cruel. Ive seen animal cruelty up close and this isnt it thanks.
 
#24 ·
Like with a lot of animals that have become domestic over time.. they change. On their own.

Look at that fox research of many years - bred foxes to become domesticated.. guess what? They started changing their physical features on there own, no help from people.

Just like how we got the dogs we have today.. yes, we refined things, but over time they changed from looking wolfish to looking like the average canine we see walking the alley.

And the bettas changed their looks on their own in time as well - how else could we of gotten long fins from short fins? Hey.. it happened naturally, we just improved upon it to make it more visually appealing.

So in reality.. we just tweaked what naturally happened.. yet mother nature isn't the cruel one for being the first one to create it :)
 
#27 ·
Back when my kids were little we gave them water wings to help them swim better. Also recall using something called flippers when I went scuba diving. Its just an extension or bigger fin to help me swim better. I've seen this discussion regarding fin size before here and no conclusive evidence (physics) showing it to be much harder to swim at all with larger fins. Is it possible EE actually have it easier swimming with those fins? The difference would not be all that much either way imo.
 
#28 ·
Both sides of the argument have good points;

- the bettas we love so much today and can find in most lfs' would never be found int he wild
- the different patterns and types are mutations discovered through a lot of hard work from breeders
- its very similar to how we ended up with so many breeds of domesticated animals
- in NATURAL conditions in the wild, no, EE's and other betta with larger fins wouldn't stand a chance. Wild bettas naturally have shorter fins, and are darker, less flashier. For a reason - only the strong survive int eh wild, and our bettas sitting in aquariums wouldn't be able to hande that.
- but our bettas arent meant for the wild, or fighting, and thus fulfill their purpose - appearing as beautiful aquarium fish

Still, some facts to be taken into account - in the wild, animals of any sort with a deformity are usually picked off early on. Cripes, the mothers will cull the young in some species so they don't have to provide for a babe that may not survive to adulthood.

In my opinion, yes, I think excessive finnage can become a danger factor. They droop and get stuck to things, so we provide as few hooks and burrs for their home as we can. Large fins act like sails, so currents can easilly push the fish around. So we reduce filter flow and are gentle with water changes.

But onwards to ability to control their swimming - that depends on how strongly and properly built the betta is under the 'plummage'. If anyone's looked at a non-EE betta their pectorals are small spines with very, VERY thin fin spread between each. The fluttering EE trait is the exact same as the rosetail trait - if properly cared for, yes, you have a happy, healthy betta. But if that x-factor isn't carefully watched and if too much of it isn't culled...your poor fish is going to have troubles. Which you can account for and fix to the best of your abilities, but not EVERY animal with a handicap lives as long as they would if they didn't have that handicap.

There are happy miracle stories all over the world, dogs with two legs, cats with no eyes, bettas born blind......but usually the case is that an animal does it's happiest and best, but eventually they do run out of strength. Eventually, they die a happy death, but in all possibility before they would have if they had all four limbs, etc.

Now before I get flamed...I'm not really taking a side. But to boycott one betta mutation in favor of another is simply being a hypocrite.

People need to remember that these aren't wild-born fish, they're practically man-made, which means they're going to be abused to suit the fancy of man from fad to fad. That's the way of humans. Deal with it, because you own several results of that very fact. Have we been helpful? Many have different opinions on that. Should we have? I'm not sure if it's a relevent question at this point seeing as instead of out-fishing the betta for pets, man's polluting and building over their natural habitat while we enjoy fancy fish over here.

My point is...there's no absolute right or wrong. Like them or hate them, but do so with facts and logic. Research it. Does an EE betta have enough structure to their fin for the extra fluttery bits not to hamper it? What exactly is the lifespan of an x-factor betta vs your typical PK? Where exactly did this all originate? Lots of questions should be looked up before getting into heated debates over bias.

Anyways...I think I've ranted enough...
 
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