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Old 03-23-2012, 09:36 PM   #141 
Bombalurina
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The point is, though, that that teeny tiny area is part of a huge ecosystem which recieves natural filtration and heating that a tank of the same size does not. Thus, a small tank is not a healthy environment, whereas the same size area in a klong is.
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:51 PM   #142 
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Originally Posted by Bombalurina View Post
The point is, though, that that teeny tiny area is part of a huge ecosystem which recieves natural filtration and heating that a tank of the same size does not. Thus, a small tank is not a healthy environment, whereas the same size area in a klong is.
Interesting point, however filtration is an irrelevant argument when the argument is on size.(Red Herring!) So long as people are able to maintain proper H2O, undoubtedly harder to do in a smaller aquarium, the fish is fine in a confined space.

Filtration/Proper maintenance of H2O totally different subject. However when regarding size a mud puddle is sufficient enough.

I'm arguing logic and semantics!
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:00 PM   #143 
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I kept my current fish in a (US) pint for months, my other fish I kept for years!.... So long as I did bi-weekly water changes and the water temp didn't fluctuate too much, MY FISH was fine!!!! You just have to really stay on top of things!!!!
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:52 PM   #144 
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Fine and thriving... two different things.

Bi-weekly water changes on 1 pint? More like every other day. This is what one pint looks like.

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Old 03-24-2012, 12:09 AM   #145 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical Fish Guy View Post
Interesting point, however filtration is an irrelevant argument when the argument is on size.(Red Herring!) So long as people are able to maintain proper H2O, undoubtedly harder to do in a smaller aquarium, the fish is fine in a confined space.

Filtration/Proper maintenance of H2O totally different subject. However when regarding size a mud puddle is sufficient enough.

I'm arguing logic and semantics!
By filtration, I mean that the ammonia in the water is converted to nitrate or consumed by plants before it can build to toxic levels. This is never an irrelevant argument when comparing a tank to nature, as this process and it's replication in the tank is one of the most important factors in keeping fish healthy. Since filtration is one of the best ways of maintaining the water, combined with water changes, I don't see how the two subjects are seperate, as you are arguing.

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Fine and thriving... two different things.

Bi-weekly water changes on 1 pint? More like every other day. This is what one pint looks like.

+1. Whilst in the wild they may only have small territory, they still have room to swim within this area. It's not this small - you may wish to have a look at the size of "mud puddles" again, Cynical. Typically, though the area may be shallow and therefore not have a large volume of water, it has a greater footprint.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:43 AM   #146 
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The pH in a lot of those puddles would be so low because of decaying organic matter and rainwater that any ammonia-related toxicity would be minimal because it would consist mostly of ammonium, which is much less harmful.

Unless you can get the pH in your tanks down to 4-6.0, which is what the pH is in a lot of betta habitat, you are eventually going to run into problems with ammonia poisoning unless water changes are not performed regularly. You also run the risk of killing your bettas if the pH suddenly shoots up as any ammonium present will quickly be converted back to ammonia.

My wild bettas although mostly sedentary do enjoy having space to move about. I have no issues with breeders housing their bettas in smaller bodies of water because of the practicalities of their business. The big breeders over in Thailand know exactly what they are doing, and it shows in the quality of the fish they produce.

However, for the casual betta owner with only a couple pet only bettas, there's no really no reason to only provide them with the bare minimum.

While a larger space may not be necessary from a water-quality perspective, I believe fatty liver disease has been linked to the often sedentary lifestyle led by bettas housed in smaller containers. Also I could easily see how muscle atrophy could occur if bettas are not provided with enough room to adequately exercise. This is of particular concern if the betta in question has to cope with excessive or heavy finnage.

Personally, a 1 gallon/4 litre tank is the absolute minimum I would use for permanent accommodation. This to me, provides at least enough room for an adult betta to swim horizontally back and forth.

It is wrong for pet and fish stores to continue to exploit the resilience of bettas, and their ability to survive in less than ideal conditions. Generally the only reason bettas end up in puddles is because the main body of water has dried up, and I wager a high percentage of these die before the next lot of rains arrive. Frankly, I don't really see any reason to mimic the extremes of a betta's environment in the aquarium.
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Old 03-24-2012, 02:33 AM   #147 
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Do any of you realize that NO ANIMALS die of "natural" causes in Nature??? The end result is when you get old, you get eaten. Be it a stork or fungus, the end result is the same..... Good points though!!!
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Old 03-24-2012, 04:11 PM   #148 
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Now I'm confused... How is that relevant to the current topic? An animal dying of old age is considered a natural death, it doesn't matter if it is consumed by something else after. In fact, the very act of an animal consuming another in the wild is a natural process.
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Old 03-24-2012, 04:33 PM   #149 
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So maintaining a tank; ideal PH can be argued as unnatural. As PH would be daily affected. Temp might remain stable. It all depends, did a bear decide to poop in the Forrest that day or not?--However none of this has to do with size requirements!!! Just so called 'natural filtration', on any given day.
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Old 03-24-2012, 04:51 PM   #150 
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Well here's my view on size requirements:

Quote:
While a larger space may not be necessary from a water-quality perspective, I believe fatty liver disease has been linked to the often sedentary lifestyle led by bettas housed in smaller containers. Also I could easily see how muscle atrophy could occur if bettas are not provided with enough room to adequately exercise. This is of particular concern if the betta in question has to cope with excessive or heavy finnage.
While betta splendens are jarred by breeders in Thailand once they hit maturity, most of their early life is spent in large concrete ponds where their is plenty of space for them to develop and build up muscling.

It's only due to the onset of territorial aggression and cultivation of correct finnage that males are jarred.

Once bettas get sold they are either sent out wholesale and are housed by most pet or fish stores in small cups purely out of convenience, or they wind up purchased privately and spend their life in a hobbyist's tank.

While a betta does not require a large space of water to live in, I can't understand why you persist in challenging the concept that for some people it is enjoyable to provide their bettas with as an enriching and stimulating environment as possible.

The domesticated betta splendens is an artificial breed. It is not as hardy as its wild ancestors and would probably die if it was forced to live in a puddle or rice paddy. The whole concept of what is natural for them and what isn't is skewed by the fact that most bettas nowadays haven't got wild splenden ancestry in them until way back down the line. They are a fish bred purely for looks. Only the true fighter plakats still possess many of the traits found in wild splendens, though their aggression has been intensified by selective breeding.

Can I ask why you housed a betta in a pint of water? Is it because you simply could? Even with regular water changes I can't imagine it was the most exciting environment for a fish. At least breeders card their males and then give them limited access to other males and females to stimulate their territorial instincts and improve their finnage.

As for dying of natural causes define what is natural? I would think a fish getting eaten or dried up or dying of ammonia poisoning would all be natural causes of death. After all there has been no interference from any outside source. That is life in nature, it is brutal and usually short-lived, which is why I have no desire to replicate it in my aquariums.
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