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Old 10-09-2012, 11:35 PM   #1 
crowntaillove
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I don't understand genetics.

I just don't. I should have paid more attention in science class. What I don't understand is, you can mix a halfmoon and a veiltail and only wind up with veiltails with recessive halfmoon genes. BUT then you could breed a veiltail and a crowntail and wind up with combtails, a whole new tail type! Then, if you mix a solid blue boy with a solid light colored girl, what happens?!?! Marble? Is that how it works? Do both colors show up on the offspring, or just one, with recessives of the other color? If that's true then how do you get a dominate color and a recessive color to show up on the same fish?

I've been reading Bettysplendens and the sticky, but I'm starting to think it's just too complicated for me.

You know what I want? I want to be able to put a blue fish with a red fish and have it make purple.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:57 AM   #2 
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Originally Posted by crowntaillove View Post
What I don't understand is, you can mix a halfmoon and a veiltail and only wind up with veiltails with recessive halfmoon genes. BUT then you could breed a veiltail and a crowntail and wind up with combtails, a whole new tail type!
You won't end up with combtails. What you get is a single tail fish with reduced webbing. The fins look very messy and it will take a fe generations to stabilize something that looks OK.

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Originally Posted by crowntaillove View Post
Then, if you mix a solid blue boy with a solid light colored girl, what happens?!?! Marble? Is that how it works? Do both colors show up on the offspring, or just one, with recessives of the other color? If that's true then how do you get a dominate color and a recessive color to show up on the same fish?
No. You will get blues with red wash which is not desirable. Depending on the bckground of the fish you might get other things to pop up but it would be unpredictable without knowing the line.
To get both recessive and dominant color to show on fish you need two parents with recessive colors but to carry the dominant geno.

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You know what I want? I want to be able to put a blue fish with a red fish and have it make purple.
You and every other breeder out there! LOL! And Blue+Yellow to green too!
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:09 AM   #3 
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Well, let me just say, I am SO glad I asked that question here, otherwise I may have ended up with some exceptionally bad looking fry. I want to try breeding, I feel like it will be a learning experience for me to help me better grasp the concept of genetics and what happens when you mix fish A with fish B. At the same time, I don't want to wind up with very poor quality fry.

So, what happens when you cross two fish with both recessive colors, or both dominate? Do you still get a "wash" of some sort?

How about eye color, can that be manipulated?

Are butterfly and marble a gene that has to be introduced into a line, or can it be created?

Eventually (that's probably a very far off eventually), I want to breed perfectly formed Halfsuns.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:01 PM   #4 
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Also, how do you go about breeding a fancy betta? They have so many brilliant colors on them, I'm in love.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:48 AM   #5 
indjo
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To understand color genetics, you first need to understand the basic colors .... or what science calls color layers. Irids (green, steel blue and royal blue) are on the top layer and are dominant. These colors will show for generations though you don't breed them with another irid color. They may show partially or merely rays on fins.

Then there's the black layer where you'll find the black, cambodian, or blond genes. This layer is said to be recessive but my experience tells me otherwise. But it isn't as dominant as irids.

The red layer regulates red pigments - extended red, reduced red/red loss, non red (orange and yellow), and the butterfly pattern. The classic cherry red is dominant and will show for generations - probably as red wash. Extended red, often mixed up with bright red (specially by me. Lol) and non red needs the combination of the black layer blond genes and genes they call NR (non red) which are carried by cambodians.

The outcome of crossing different color layers may not conform to this theory. This is because you CAN"T find a betta with pure genes or at least they're very rare. That's why it's important to know their genetic background - if you want definite color outcomes.

Through the years bettas have gone through several mutations. I would not advise you trying to create your own mutation from scratch. It would be best to work with genes that you prefer. Say you want a multi fancy, then get at least one that has such genes/mutation. Or butterfly (sort of dominant and will (partially) show for generations)- then get one butterfly as parent. Other wise you will only end up with classic color combos - wild type colors (combination of black, irid and red), irid with red fins, or red with spots of irid on body and irid rays on fins.

I hope you can understand this better. Ask as many questions as you can think of so we can better explain.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:49 AM   #6 
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I love genetics (I teach biology, biotechnology, and genetics) but never pay attention to betta genetics.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:54 PM   #7 
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Originally Posted by indjo View Post
To understand color genetics, you first need to understand the basic colors .... or what science calls color layers. Irids (green, steel blue and royal blue) are on the top layer and are dominant. These colors will show for generations though you don't breed them with another irid color. They may show partially or merely rays on fins.

Then there's the black layer where you'll find the black, cambodian, or blond genes. This layer is said to be recessive but my experience tells me otherwise. But it isn't as dominant as irids.

The red layer regulates red pigments - extended red, reduced red/red loss, non red (orange and yellow), and the butterfly pattern. The classic cherry red is dominant and will show for generations - probably as red wash. Extended red, often mixed up with bright red (specially by me. Lol) and non red needs the combination of the black layer blond genes and genes they call NR (non red) which are carried by cambodians.

The outcome of crossing different color layers may not conform to this theory. This is because you CAN"T find a betta with pure genes or at least they're very rare. That's why it's important to know their genetic background - if you want definite color outcomes.

Through the years bettas have gone through several mutations. I would not advise you trying to create your own mutation from scratch. It would be best to work with genes that you prefer. Say you want a multi fancy, then get at least one that has such genes/mutation. Or butterfly (sort of dominant and will (partially) show for generations)- then get one butterfly as parent. Other wise you will only end up with classic color combos - wild type colors (combination of black, irid and red), irid with red fins, or red with spots of irid on body and irid rays on fins.

I hope you can understand this better. Ask as many questions as you can think of so we can better explain.

You explained that very well. I'm not saying I understand, but I do a little more than before. What are blonde genes? Cambodians have NR genes even though they have red fins, is that the same as the red loss gene or is that completely different? When you say red wash, you're referring to red on the irridesence layer, right? I'll probably think of more questions later but it's getting late. Thank you so much for trying to help me. :]
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:35 AM   #8 
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You explained that very well. I'm not saying I understand, but I do a little more than before.

What are blonde genes? Blond genes are the genes that makes cherry red (a dark-blackish red) look light and bright red because it reduces the black pigment. It can also be found in other colors - but its effect isn't as clear as in red. Yellow and orange need this blond gene as well.

Cambodians have NR genes even though they have red fins, is that the same as the red loss gene or is that completely different?
NR and red loss are different. NR causes yellow, orange, white to appear instead of red. NR genes are carried by cambodians. Red cambodians mainly carries NR that makes bettas yellow/orange (crossed to red). Cambodian with lots of irids will make bettas white (crossed to irid). The blond gene is needed to eliminate the black pigment so that those colors become full and bright.

Red loss is something that causes a red betta to suddenly change pale. It's like the marble gene but in this case it mainly eliminates red pigments.

When you say red wash, you're referring to red on the irridesence layer, right?
Basically, yes. A betta may look solid blue or green (or what ever) but if you really look at them, the fins show some red.

I'll probably think of more questions later but it's getting late. Thank you so much for trying to help me. :]
Glad you could understand better.
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:35 PM   #9 
crowntaillove
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by indjo View Post
You explained that very well. I'm not saying I understand, but I do a little more than before.

What are blonde genes? Blond genes are the genes that makes cherry red (a dark-blackish red) look light and bright red because it reduces the black pigment. It can also be found in other colors - but its effect isn't as clear as in red. Yellow and orange need this blond gene as well.

Cambodians have NR genes even though they have red fins, is that the same as the red loss gene or is that completely different?
NR and red loss are different. NR causes yellow, orange, white to appear instead of red. NR genes are carried by cambodians. Red cambodians mainly carries NR that makes bettas yellow/orange (crossed to red). Cambodian with lots of irids will make bettas white (crossed to irid). The blond gene is needed to eliminate the black pigment so that those colors become full and bright.

Red loss is something that causes a red betta to suddenly change pale. It's like the marble gene but in this case it mainly eliminates red pigments.

When you say red wash, you're referring to red on the irridesence layer, right?
Basically, yes. A betta may look solid blue or green (or what ever) but if you really look at them, the fins show some red.

I'll probably think of more questions later but it's getting late. Thank you so much for trying to help
me. :]
Glad you could understand better.
So what you're saying is, bettas carry many more genes than just the colors we see and that's why some bettas breed true and other colors don't, right? If you wanted to start a new mutation you would have to cross two with all the right genes that manipulate all the right layers. I would just have to learn on a more detailed level which genes to what. That's why if you breed a blue and a red betta with random genes, you really don't know what "hidden" genes they carry and you could end up with nothing more than blues with red wash. Am I understanding this correctly?
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:50 PM   #10 
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Yes. That's why it's important to know their genetic back ground (also for health reasons) if you want a more definite result.

Keep in mind that most of today's bettas have mixed genes so you may need to breed a few generation to get pure colors genes. Don't be surprised if you bred two same colors but get a rainbow of colors. Some "strong" genes may be carried for 3 generations - though they don't show in previous generations, but they might suddenly show in the next one. Confusing? ... yes it is indeed! This is why some replies say you can't really know the outcome, specially if you don't know their background.
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