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Old 11-19-2012, 07:19 PM   #11 
twolovers101
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I agree with others of the opinion that choosing to save your own life does not make you evil, but sacrificing yourself for others is a noble choice indeed.

As for why we celebrate heroes, say firefighters for example, I think it is because they risk their lives for others on a regular basis. Even though it could be thought of that it is their "duty" to do this because it is their job/civic duty as a firefighter, it is still the risk of their own life for someone else's. Also, when a firefighter, or some other individual who's job it is to put their life on the line for others is celebrated, it is generally for an extreme act of self sacrifice and not just saving a life. Though I believe that any life saved is a good enough reason for celebration, whether it was the person who did the saving's "duty" or not.

As for the stem cell research... I'm not as well informed about this topic as I would like to be, however I am one of those people who is of the opinion that life begins at conception, aka, the moment the sperm enters the egg. Because of my belief that life begins at conception, and that killing innocent life is wrong, I am against abortion in every way. I realize that this is a very touchy subject and at risk at starting an unfriendly debate, I shall leave it at that. I will say, however, that I value and respect the opinions of others and that stem cell research has proven to be very beneficial, I just don't think that *embryonic* stem cell research is right.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:33 PM   #12 
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I suppose this is almost a similar conversation to whether or not animals should be used in medical research. Not to go off topic, but though animals might not understand where the pain or "uncomfortableness" is coming from, they are more sentient than than an embryo, which is pretty much a bunch of cells at that point.

I am an animal crazy person. I hate to see animals suffer, but I really understand animals being used for research. I heard about my mom's work experiment on Guinea Pigs, and though I felt a bit bad for them (I have Gpigs myself), I understand the need to use such creatures for our own health.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:41 PM   #13 
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I understand the benefits of animal research also, and though I don't "like" it, I am "okay" with it as it is sometimes necessary. Though animals are more "sentient" than an embryo (sorry I'm quote mark heavy today xD) I personally feel that humans are not on the same level as animals and that we are higher beings. I know all the science behind us being the same as animals and what not, but (oh gosh here it comes) my beliefs prevent me from thinking that we are the same.

I'd really rather not drag religion into this as that creates much more drama than I'm sure the mods would like on this forum, lol, but yes, I am a Christian, so you can probably see where I was coming from/going with that.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:51 PM   #14 
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I see how your views might differ from mine, since I am not tied to any one religion (even though I do believe some higher spiritual being or beings may or may not exist). I though cannot see how humans are higher beings than animals. In fact, to me, in many ways animals are the higher beings of the two of us. :P
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:55 PM   #15 
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Originally Posted by twolovers101 View Post
I understand the benefits of animal research also, and though I don't "like" it, I am "okay" with it as it is sometimes necessary. Though animals are more "sentient" than an embryo (sorry I'm quote mark heavy today xD) I personally feel that humans are not on the same level as animals and that we are higher beings. I know all the science behind us being the same as animals and what not, but (oh gosh here it comes) my beliefs prevent me from thinking that we are the same.

I'd really rather not drag religion into this as that creates much more drama than I'm sure the mods would like on this forum, lol, but yes, I am a Christian, so you can probably see where I was coming from/going with that.
and therein lies the core of the matter. i would never tell someone not to believe what they feel is right, and live their life accordingly. in return, however, i think everyone should respect the fact that everyone has the same right, and just because your religion sees something as a sin or abomination does not give you the right to force another person to act accordingly. the two big issues i'm referencing here are abortion and gay marriage. with both issues, i think it's fine if you think your god is opposed, and if you believe that then by all means abstain from both. same thing with the use of alcohol or drugs (or even something as innocuous as caffeine, i went to school with a mormon girl who'd get huffy if i sat down in class with a cup of coffee) abstain from any actions or choices you find offensive, but DO NOT try to prevent others from making their own choices based upon THEIR beliefs.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:07 PM   #16 
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and therein lies the core of the matter. i would never tell someone not to believe what they feel is right, and live their life accordingly. in return, however, i think everyone should respect the fact that everyone has the same right, and just because your religion sees something as a sin or abomination does not give you the right to force another person to act accordingly. the two big issues i'm referencing here are abortion and gay marriage. with both issues, i think it's fine if you think your god is opposed, and if you believe that then by all means abstain from both. same thing with the use of alcohol or drugs (or even something as innocuous as caffeine, i went to school with a mormon girl who'd get huffy if i sat down in class with a cup of coffee) abstain from any actions or choices you find offensive, but DO NOT try to prevent others from making their own choices based upon THEIR beliefs.
I'm not sure if I was clear, but I was/am in no way trying to force my beliefs on others, just stating my own opinion. :)
I believe also, that everyone has the right to live their life the way they see fit, whether I like those choices or not. The fact of the matter is that it is their life, and therefore their choice.

My main issue (on this subject) is that because of my previously stated beliefs about life beginning at conception, I am not of the thought that it is okay to abort a child because it is "inconvenient" or for any other reason. The child, whether an embryo or later in the fetal stages, is in my opinion a living being that should be allowed the choice to live. When a person (usually the mother) chooses to abort said child, that choice is taken from the child.

I understand that my opinion is exactly that, mine, and do not desire to enforce that opinion on anyone. I just feel like the child should be given the option to live.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm just stating how I feel about a subject, and I'm really not trying to be confrontational, just a friendly debate :)
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:23 PM   #17 
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Ok jumping in here but,

Your original post has a classic example of Deontological vs Utilitarian Ethics. Both are certainly valid but need an element of subjectivity to avoid the occurrence of terrible things, as either can go astray in their extremes. Though i will admit a liking for Deontology as utilitatian strikes me as somewhat cold and indifferent.

As for the note about heroes, I agree with twolovers101.

Now for the touchy subject.Stem Cell Research and /or abortion. It seems to me that such comparisons as acorn to a tree and embryo/fetus to a person are some what inaccurate. An acorn and a full grown oak are both plants just as an embryo and an adult are both people/ humans/ a life (choose your word). I fail to see how any arbitrary line along the path of development can be justified enough to say without a doubt that before this "point" it is not a person and after the "point" it is. With this in mind I agree, once again, with twolovers101 that life begins at conception. The embryo will grow into a person and has human DNA and ought to be protected. As for stem cell research, if the life has already been lost due to some kind of complication or if there be a way to do the research with out harming the fetus, then I have no qualms. But it does make me nervous about people justifying abortion for the sake of the research.

also, I'm surprised the death penalty hasn't come up yet. lol
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:18 PM   #18 
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I'm surprised at how civil this thread has remained.

As for your original question, I believe in rational selfishness. Me above all else but not at the expense of others. The term and the attitude aren't popular in an altruistic/religious society, where you are expected to give what you have worked hard for to those who haven't done a lick of work but I digress. Choosing to save one's self over others does not make one evil. It makes one human...or is it animal...anyway.

Now the crux of the matter for me lies in the term heroic. Why praise the firefighter who saves the individual from a burning building when he is just doing his job as a hero but not the mother who gets up every morning at 5 in the morning to go to work and provide for her child? What makes the firefighter's action more heroic? The danger element? He has been trained, given special equipment, and has a team behind him. Does the mom?
I support stem cell research, a woman's or family's right to choose (can't judge until you've been there, regardless of your beliefs), and the death penalty. The argument against is that nobody has the right to dictate whether another person lives or dies. My rebuttal is that the person looses that right when he or she knowingly, willingly, and maliciously chose to dictate whether his or her victim lived or died. To kill a twelve-year-old girl for bicycle parts?!?
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:55 PM   #19 
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i think the main element for the term heroic is that it is a job that is particularly dangerous as serving of others. along with some other element. like pay. cops, firefighters, soldiers, and teachers are underpaid and very needed. thus it is seen as something of a sacrifice when an individual goes into the field and helps provide for society's needs. and they are praised in particular when they do something of particular note. as for the death penalty i more or less agree, but as i have said before i am against abortion. opinions that are possibly in opposition ( pro-life and pro-death penalty) but i suppose the easiest way to summerise that long discussion is in this sentiment:

protect the weak, punish the wicked.

(wicked in the non religious sense, as i try not to base my arguments in faith. if something is true it will be true for more reasons than "the bible tells me so")
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:57 PM   #20 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyja
...the crux of the matter for me lies in the term heroic. Why praise the firefighter who saves the individual from a burning building when he is just doing his job as a hero but not the mother who gets up every morning at 5 in the morning to go to work and provide for her child? What makes the firefighter's action more heroic? The danger element? He has been trained, given special equipment, and has a team behind him. Does the mom?
I support stem cell research, a woman's or family's right to choose (can't judge until you've been there, regardless of your beliefs), and the death penalty. The argument against is that nobody has the right to dictate whether another person lives or dies. My rebuttal is that the person loses that right when he or she knowingly, willingly, and maliciously chose to dictate whether his or her victim lived or died.
I'll go back to my base opinion, which is that heroism is in defiance to one's natural state. A mother providing for her child is a natural state (even more so than a father providing for his), thus it is not heroism. Don't get me wrong, I still believe that it is a wonderful, admirable, thankless thing parents do... it simply isn't out of the ordinary.

Also, I definitely think that accepting money for something automatically makes it less heroic, but not necessarily non-heroic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PolarBearDog
i think the main element for the term heroic is that it is a job that is particularly dangerous as serving of others. along with some other element. like pay. cops, firefighters, soldiers, and teachers are underpaid and very needed. thus it is seen as something of a sacrifice when an individual goes into the field and helps provide for society's needs. and they are praised in particular when they do something of particular note. as for the death penalty i more or less agree, but as i have said before i am against abortion. opinions that are possibly in opposition ( pro-life and pro-death penalty) but i suppose the easiest way to summerise = summarizethat long discussion is in this sentiment:
Who's to say anyone's under-paid? It's yet another subject tangled in opinions. Your examples, for example, are far from my own examples of the underpaid. Except for teachers, in general. But there are quite a lot of those who are over-paid, if one were to go by worth rather than profession...
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