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Old 12-14-2012, 11:47 PM   #21 
rmarkham
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He's been eating like a champ! He will swim to the top when I open the lid because he knows that means food.

I have prazipro on hand, which I know from experience is safe for plants and the beneficial bacteria in the tank so I wouldn't need a hospital set up just yet. It's pretty mild and I had to use it in my main tank (planted with snails) for some freak external worm infection on my cory cat fish and it worked like a charm. It's been about 2 months and it's totally gone! Either that or it went away on it's own.. my cory cats have even spawned since.. crazy right?! (even though it's marketed for internal worms)

Should I try a run of that for 5 days first? I also have coppersafe on hand and could do a hospital tank run with that... but that's pretty harsh I think, I've never really used it but have it as a back up sort of deal. I can run out this weekend or order the kanaplex/paraguard as well.
I work as a clinical microbiologist, specifically with antibiotic resistance.. I don't like seeing the downsides of my work play out in my fish tank... because there's no way I can test it, and I really want to help this fish... He's almost a year old, well that's how long I've had him.

What I really don't understand is where this all came from!


Also, isn't paraguard a tablet? How would I dose that/manage water changes during the 5 day soak?
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:53 PM   #22 
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For a comparison shot, this is what he looked like on 9/4/12

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Old 12-14-2012, 11:59 PM   #23 
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Yes, PraziPro will work as well. Prazi does tend to target mostly internal but in this case it might be enough to clear up the causes of his color loss and listlessness. It may work on the cloudy eye but for that we might need a medication that targets external parasites. Something with acriflavine would probably work.

I would probably recommend giving the PraziPro a try first because it is a good med and it means you won't have to spend any more money.

Coppersafe . . . hmm. If the cause of his cloudy eye is indeed external parasites then Coppersafe would work but as you mentioned, it's pretty strong stuff and I don't especially like to use it if less harsh meds will work.

In order to find out if the cause of his cloudy eye is external parasites or bacterial, a skin/mucous sample would have to be taken and viewed under a microscope. Since you're a clinical microbiologist, that part would probably be easy. The hard part would be identifying what you see. You might be able to google something like "fish skin flukes magnified" and see if you can get an image for comparison. :/

Poor little guy.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:05 AM   #24 
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Prazipro mostly works on external parasites since it's in the water and anything in the water works external.. it's not a completely internal med because it's not absorbed through the gills but some say it's more readily absorbed than others. Yes, the bottle says it works internal but the truth is it mostly relies on what water is swallowed by the fish to go internal, so while it can work it's actually not the most effective internal treatment, but it is the only med for parasites that seems to have potential to work internally just by putting it in the water. It won't treat bacterial infections at all, just parasite.

Also it's super common to need to extend prazi beyond the bottle round time. 2 week is pretty much minimum and you can use it up to a month.. I'd treat a week past when he seems to be cleared because people who tend to stop this med at first clearup tend to see reinfections. It works and it's more gentle than a lot of antiparasite meds but it takes a lot of patience with it.

Erythromyacin is only a gram negative antibiotic so if that eye was caused by a gram positive infection it wouldn't have touched it and they usually are.. so the Kanaplex would maybe have worked over it. That was my reasoning.

Last edited by callistra; 12-15-2012 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:09 AM   #25 
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I don't know how'd I'd get a sample without hurting him even more. I do have a few close friends in the parasitology lab who have helped me out with gecko poop in the past, on the down low of course haha.

I'll try the prazi, money really isn't an issue if it gets him healthy, but I'm a fan of using less harsh drugs first!

I already did a 50% water change earlier today, and I'm getting ready for bed, before I do get to sleep I'll start the prazipro and hope for the best!

I believe the bottle says that you should use it for 5-7 days, do a water change and re treat if necessary, no more often than every 3 days. I figure I can re-treat after a water change at day 4 or so? Do that a few times if I see improvement?

I've seen some posts on salt water forums about prazi when I google it quickly, it seems some people use it for gill flukes so who knows! I'll keep you posted.

Thank you so much for helping me everyone, I really, really appreciate it.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:12 AM   #26 
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If you're going with prazi, would treat every 3 days for 2-3 weeks (at least two weeks since one week past clear up will keep a reinfection from occurring). I would do big water changes in between rounds weekly). It's very unlikely to work with one treatment based on my experience and observations.

Are you going on parasite based on him being skinny alone? What's his poop look like.. are you seeing any signs of this being parasite at all? Also those NLS are super small so unless you're feeding 6+ a day he will be on the smaller size.. 5 a day is minimum with those and they will be slender.

My guess is still that it's a run of the mill gram positive eye infection that a gram negative antibiotic wouldn't have touched and he needs something specifically gram positive or more broad spectrum like Kanamyacin.

Last edited by callistra; 12-15-2012 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:19 AM   #27 
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Markham, I am also reading that praziquantel can be used for external flukes. My sources say it is effective for internal parasites but will also target external flukes and parasites as well, although it may not be the most effective external parasite med. Based on this info, I would say try the PraziPro for sure.

Haha, so I still remember college lit classes and it's been drilled into me to always cite my sources so here they are:

I currently use as my main sources The Super Simple Guide to Common Fish Diseases by Lance Jepson; A-Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems by Peter Burgess, Mary Bailey, and Peter Exell; The Betta Handbook by Robert J Goldstein; and several reputable websites for the basis of my information. I do as much research as I can but I'm not an expert or fish veterinarian by any means.


EDIT: The majority of infections are gram negative, not gram positive.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:19 AM   #28 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callistra View Post
If you're going with prazi, would treat every 3 days for 2-3 weeks. I would do big water changes in between rounds weekly). It's very unlikely to work with one one treatment based on my experience and observations.

Are you going on parasite based on him being skinny alone? What's his poop look like.. are you seeing any signs of this being parasite at all? Also those NLS are super small so unless you're feeding 6+ a day he will be on the smaller size.

My guess is still that it's a run of the mill gram positive eye infection that a gram negative antibiotic wouldn't have touched and he needs something specifically gram positive or more broad spectrum like Kanamyacin.
I was trying Erythromycin and that is a great Gram Positive drug. In humans it's used for Staph, Strep, and other Gram Pos infections. It's a great alternative to the penicillin family for patients who are pen-allergic.
I haven't noticed any abnormal poo, but have read that some parasitic infections can cause cloudy eye, and he has been very listless and losing his color. I feel that if he did have a gram positive infection, even if it was a more resistant strain I would have seen some sort of change while doing Erythromycin baths...

I figured that Prazipro is mild, and won't do him much harm, and it's easy to treat with and who knows, I may luck out and fix him!

If I don't start to see results after a few treatments, (I will re-treat every 3 days) than I will switch over to a stronger antibiotic.

I feed him pellets as well as frozen brine shrimp. I feed the same exact diet to my other male betta and he is normal in size, and is much healthier in appearance.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:21 AM   #29 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura8 View Post
Markham, I am also reading that praziquantel can be used for external flukes. My sources say it is effective for internal parasites but will also target external flukes and parasites as well, although it may not be the most effective external parasite med. Based on this info, I would say try the PraziPro for sure.

Haha, so I still remember college lit classes and it's been drilled into me to always cite my sources so here they are:

I currently use as my main sources The Super Simple Guide to Common Fish Diseases by Lance Jepson; A-Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems by Peter Burgess, Mary Bailey, and Peter Exell; The Betta Handbook by Robert J Goldstein; and several reputable websites for the basis of my information. I do as much research as I can but I'm not an expert or fish veterinarian by any means.
I LOVE SOURCES!!!

Thanks! :)
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:24 AM   #30 
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You're welcome. Haha, like I said, my english teachers drilled it into me, semester after semester.
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