Critiques on my Double Tail please?

[ChibreneyDragon]

It doesnt really seem like a challenge if you just bought a pair from a single breeder. Then it wouldnt be UNIQUE to YOU. If I were going into the show cirquit, I would probably buy from two seperate breeders, and aim for something different... Otherwise its just like... You dont really have any credit for your fish...because they are the OTHER breeders fish, you just spawned them. Or am I being neurotic?

[dramaqueen]

To breed show quality fish you should start with show quality stock. But petstore bettas CAN be bred and I was told that if the offspring meet the proper standards they can be shown. Petstore fish should be bred with as much care and responsibility as show fish.

[LittleBlueFishlets]

Originally Posted by ChibreneyDragon

It doesnt really seem like a challenge if you just bought a pair from a single breeder. Then it wouldnt be UNIQUE to YOU. If I were going into the show cirquit, I would probably buy from two seperate breeders, and aim for something different... Otherwise its just like... You dont really have any credit for your fish...because they are the OTHER breeders fish, you just spawned them. Or am I being neurotic?

OK, I see your point. If the breeder said "Here are your two fish," then, yes, you're just spawning them.

But say YOU were the one to choose your pair from a lot of different fish that a breeder had. I don't know how many fish a breeder would have at once, but I'm thinking it would be quite a few.... And if you wanted to breed for fuller fins, you would select a different breeding pair than if you wanted breed for some other characteristic. So it would be up to you to decide which fish you want, based on the characteristics you want to develop.

Also, even if two breeders are trying to breed for the exact same characteristic, they might not select the same two fish. You might pick fish "A" and "B," but someone else might think he/she would get better results by selecting "A" and "C."

So in these cases, even if you selected the fish from a single breeder, you'd still need to decide which fish would give you the results you want....

Or, as you said, you could just buy from different breeders, which allows you to look at more breeders' fish -- and probably none of us minds doing that! Just look how popular the "Aquabid thread" is, as we all drool over the pretty fish. LOL

[ChibreneyDragon]

Originally Posted by dramaqueen

To breed show quality fish you should start with show quality stock. But petstore bettas CAN be bred and I was told that if the offspring meet the proper standards they can be shown. Petstore fish should be bred with as much care and responsibility as show fish.

This is what interests me. My aunt breeds pugs, and my friends mother breeds rottwielers. Now. In dogs, breed standard has gotten AMAZINGLY specific. But from their experiences, and case studies, "pureblood" pups and dogs have a HUGE amount of health defects, like hip displasia or psychological problems.

Bull terriers actually have the predisposition for severe OCD. Breeders speculate this can be solved by careful crossbreeding to expand the genepool.

Now, with Bettas, is this a similar case? Is fin biting and egg eating a genetic disorder? Is the noticable decline in "good daddies" a genetic defect bred into these fish due to our singlminded quest for specific traits?

Ive been breeding VT and some of the more worked on forms like DT and HM...VT show ten times better ability at spawning and nest mouthing than the more refined bettas. I plan on expanding upon this...perhaps I should make a new thread elsewhere, but I suspect the quick goal of getting straight to the show quality fish is weakening the genetic pool of these form types.

[Basement Bettas]

Breeding is only the start. The fish have to be raised and keeping HM finnage in perfect shape into and through a show season is no easy task. You may start with a pair from a breeder.. but the reality is it is still WORK to get them to be show fish. And siblings are best to start as you have traits you want often in both fish. Combining two unrelated fish will give genetic dumps and the traits you want rarely in a majority of fish. No need to reinvent the wheel. Take advantage of what another breeder has accomplished and go from there.

[Basement Bettas]

Breeders take different routes. Line breed 10 generations to fix something. Out cross every third generation, breed parallel lines. Start on one path and change to another. I do not like a lot of line breeding personally as I think the fish lose some aggression. But other breeders are successful at it. We all have different water, different amounts of time to spend, different ideas on feeding. I have found most egg eating in my house was due to bad water. Corrected the water and no more eating eggs. I still get one here and there.. but not enough to say a problem. Also remember many fish are shipped half way around the world to very different water and feeding. Can understand the spawning issues there. I don't tend to have issues with fish I have bred and raised. I also spawn early.. which in nature they do. Spawning a year old betta for the first time is like telling a 60 year old man it is now time to have kids.

[ChibreneyDragon]

I do follow your blog on what you do, and think your work is inspired, but this is something that I have been following since I started biology class in middle school.
I understand the top breeders perspective but this possibility of restrengthening bad defects is something that I have to test out, because it is a trend followed in other species.

Other people dont have the time or the resources for this, but I do. Wouldnt YOU want to know if eventually ten years from now, it is even MORE difficult to breed the fish that you love? To care for them? Or the possibility that the amount of selective breeding and inbreeding has shortened their lives considerably?

[Olympia]

But.. Would your aunt take a pug from a pet store to her line? Puppy mills and fish mills are quite similar. I'm sure dog breeders would argue that a pet store dog would be more trouble to breed up than it's worth as well..

I am not sure what sort of defects you are talking about.
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[ChibreneyDragon]

She has taken adult dogs from non certified breeders. As long as they were clear of defects and close to the standard, she begat from two of those litters dogs that WERE show quality, the only issue with the dog scene is that with a lot of "pedigree" dogs, even if they are perfect, it is really difficult to get the pedigree without parent pedigree as well.

This is why the Rotties were never bred without parent pedigrees... She didnt want to deal with any shinannigans. But a lot of her pups bred from the pedigree parents werent show quality.