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Old 12-29-2012, 11:46 PM   #41 
LittleBlueFishlets
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Originally Posted by crowntaillove3 View Post
And I would actually appreciate tearing them apart fault by fault. This is a learning experience and I would like to know what is good about my fish and what is not. The point of this forum is for new owners to learn, and I would like to learn something about show quality bettas. That is why I started this thread.
Go to Basement Betta's FB page and read the reviews. The ones I've been reading aren't for her Bettas. They are other breeders' fish being auctioned on AB. On her longer reviews, she critiques the fish, according to show standards: what's good, what could be improved. Then she gives breeding advice.

There aren't too many CTs, but there are some. (Lots of gorgeous HMs.) For most of the CTs, there's a picture of a CT, a quick critique, and an AB link.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:57 AM   #42 
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Originally Posted by LittleBlueFishlets View Post
Go to Basement Betta's FB page and read the reviews. The ones I've been reading aren't for her Bettas. They are other breeders' fish being auctioned on AB. On her longer reviews, she critiques the fish, according to show standards: what's good, what could be improved. Then she gives breeding advice.

There aren't too many CTs, but there are some. (Lots of gorgeous HMs.) For most of the CTs, there's a picture of a CT, a quick critique, and an AB link.
It's hard to find a good CT. Been trying lately as I have been wanting one.The one I DID want I asked about a female and breeder never got back to me. Auction ended with no sale and they will not get back to me even on that fish. Will make a point of trying to do more CT's.

I like to find a basically good fish so I can point out what is really good.. to train the eye to look for it. Then we get nit picky and show the faults. But these are usually really good fish.. so the flaws are minor. Again.. the idea is to get you used to SEEING those little flaws so you can evaluate fish for breeding on the internet and in your fish room.

With fish and a standard like this..


or this..




How do you expect me to view a pet shop fish? Are they bad fish? No. They just are not show fish and really should not be submitted to this kind of standard.

Most fish anywhere are going to fall short in spread and condition. Then there are the stubby dorsal rays and the too short or bent tail rays messing up the edges. Then there are the color faults. As drop dead gorgeous as that red is I can still fault him. Stare at fish like this and compare them to others and you can start to see the basic form faults.. and then I can help you see the rest.

Last edited by Basement Bettas; 12-30-2012 at 03:02 AM.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:22 AM   #43 
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Originally Posted by LittleBlueFishlets View Post

Just read two reviews on your FB page. Both were VERY informative! You described how the fish compared to show standards (color, form, condition, etc.). You even give recommendations on breeding in order to improve the line.... And, I should add, neither was your fish - but you still provided links to the AB auctions.

I think that anyone looking to purchase bettas for breeding would find a lot of excellent info in your FB reviews.
Thanks. I am passionate about these fish and breeding the best ones I can. I show to make sure I am on track .. but it is the breeding I love. I also love to educate and would love more in the hobby. Those Thai breeders should give me commission since fish I feature often sell for some good money.. lol.

Many people go to AB and get lost in all the color. If you are a serious breeder or even just starting out, you want to make good use of your money. A single fish can cost close to $70 to get to your doorstep.. and it gets more expensive if you get more fish. So far I have 6 fish coming and negotiating for more. So I am ruthless when I evaluate a fish.. he has to be worth me flying him halfway around the word. So I try to help others look for those little faults I didn't know about when I started. When you drop that $70 it need to be for more than a gut reaction of "he's pretty". He needs to bring sound form and balance to your breeding program or you are just going to waste time.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:27 AM   #44 
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I can see that someone like crowntails ^^
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:00 PM   #45 
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Originally Posted by Basement Bettas View Post
... I like to find a basically good fish so I can point out what is really good.. to train the eye to look for it. Then we get nit picky and show the faults. But these are usually really good fish.. so the flaws are minor. Again.. the idea is to get you used to SEEING those little flaws so you can evaluate fish for breeding on the internet and in your fish room.
Yes, your reviews are helpful for developing this skill. I see the gorgeous photo, then read your critique while studying the picture. If not for your comments, there's no way I would have noticed the anal fin or color separation, etc.

As for the red HM in the photo you posted: My first reaction was "Oooo! I want him!" And I still want him - but from a show perspective, would the black outline be considered a fault? And if so, from a breeding perspective, how would you remove it?

Quote:
How do you expect me to view a pet shop fish? Are they bad fish? No. They just are not show fish and really should not be submitted to this kind of standard.

Most fish anywhere are going to fall short in spread and condition. Then there are the stubby dorsal rays and the too short or bent tail rays messing up the edges. Then there are the color faults. As drop dead gorgeous as that red is I can still fault him. Stare at fish like this and compare them to others and you can start to see the basic form faults.. and then I can help you see the rest.
My mom adopted a rescue dog last week. She's going to be a great pet. But she's not a show dog. In fact, it wouldn't be fair to subject her to a critique against the breed standard. (I'm not a breeder, but even I can tell that her feet are flat, her eyes are too round, her body is too long, etc.) If I was a dog breeder, I wouldn't use my mom's rescue dog in my line. (Yes, she's spayed, if anyone is wondering.) That said, this dog will still be an excellent pet for my mom.

Likewise, petshop fish are wonderful pets. But they aren't show fish....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basement Bettas View Post
Many people go to AB and get lost in all the color. If you are a serious breeder or even just starting out, you want to make good use of your money. A single fish can cost close to $70 to get to your doorstep.. and it gets more expensive if you get more fish. So far I have 6 fish coming and negotiating for more. So I am ruthless when I evaluate a fish.. he has to be worth me flying him halfway around the word. So I try to help others look for those little faults I didn't know about when I started. When you drop that $70 it need to be for more than a gut reaction of "he's pretty". He needs to bring sound form and balance to your breeding program or you are just going to waste time.
I understand this. Again, going back to dogs, I'm not a breeder but I wouldn't use a petshop quality dog if I wanted to breed a show-quality line. Yes, technically, I could weed out the flaws over time, but this would take too many generations. Instead, I'd look for the highest quality dog I could afford as the foundation for my line. And I'd want to give thought (before getting him) about how I'd be able to improve strengths and reduce flaws.

That said, if someone wants to take a petshop fish, and breed it with the goal of producing a quality line -- well, go for it! It'll probably take more generations, time and money to achieve a good result. It'll also require a REALLY in-depth understanding of breeding/genetics/etc - since the breeder would need to determine how to remove the flaws, improve strengths, etc. In the end, this breeder would probably end up spending more time, money and effort to produce a good line.... But going back to dog breeds - a good poodle is also a bad chihuahua. Someone had to start with one type of dog to produce another type. With regard only to form, it may be possible to take a 'bad crowntail,' and develop a 'good something else' (ie: a good crowntail line, or something entirely new). But whoever does it would need to have a clear vision of what they were trying to obtain, and not mind spending the time, effort and money to get there....

Just my thoughts. Hold on, I need to recharge my fire extinguisher, in case there are any flames. But these are my thoughts - as a nonbreeder of any species. LOL

Last edited by LittleBlueFishlets; 12-30-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:23 PM   #46 
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Originally Posted by LittleBlueFishlets View Post

As for the red HM in the photo you posted: My first reaction was "Oooo! I want him!" And I still want him - but from a show perspective, would the black outline be considered a fault? And if so, from a breeding perspective, how would you remove it?
Yes the black in the irid need to be remove. Just selecting the ones closest to your goal while keeping the form in line. He is heavy branched. Most good reds these days are. SO will have to watch breeding to keep length and avoid the RT affect. he is the old style dark red so you need to get rid of the black scale edges. He could also be a bit smoother.. almost has too much branching. So I'd only use an 8 ray girls instead of 16 to keep the branching but not over do it. I bought this male and he produced some outstanding fish. But his offspring never bred. Some local people have some drop dead gorgeous class winning red males as pets right now.

From show perspective yes it is a fault. Fish are judged against the standard but also against each other. They pull the worst faults first. So he could win depending on the competition.. or he could be one of the first pulled because the others were just that good.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:28 PM   #47 
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Pet shop fish can be brought to show standards but it will take a LOT of time and dedication. And when you can spend a few dollars more it makes sense to take advantage of anothers' breeding that has the same goals in mind. Most pet shop fish are just bred with no goal in mind then sheer numbers or interesting colors. And even in a perfect HM those crazy colors are not really showable outside of form and finnage. So if form not there you still have a useless [for show/breeding] fish. When you have to cull hundreds of fish you start to understand the responsibility you owe the fish as a breeder. I have an Oscar but he only gets the sick or bad deformities. I can rehome even the deformed.. but I rehome a lot of fish. I am picky and few will stay in my fish room and have my time in the feeding and water changes. So I owe it to the fish in general to try to bring good fish into the world so they can find proper homes.
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