Dangers of the Specific?

[LittleBettaFish]

It's funny. Here in Australia we seem a lot more relaxed about breeding LFS bettas. Heck, one of my favourite spawns ever was done by someone with a VT female and DTVT male. That spawn produced a lot of healthy fish who might not have been show quality but made for beautiful pets.

I wonder if it is because it is rather expensive to get in decent stock here and that most stores really don't carry the quality you guys seem to get from your Petsmart and Petcos that there is less stigma involved. I mean to import a betta from AB you have to pay for the betta and then pay I think $22-$27 a fish to get it into the country. Then they have to stay in quarantine for seven days. After which they are released and you pay for the shipping if you do not live near the store. Only one store here in Australia actually offers the service of importing AB fish in. She almost stopped doing it for a while because some doofus imported like a hundred guppies in without realising they had to pay per fish.

Honestly, I see no problem with spawning pet store fish as long as you have a goal in mind. Just wanting to get some fry or have a go at spawning really isn't a goal when the end result could very well be over a hundred adult fish needing to find homes. Also, because of the unknown element with spawning pet store fish you do have to be willing to be a little more ruthless with the culling until the consistency there.

I have noticed a lot of people never get past their first spawn. The ultimate goal for me with my wild bettas is to get a sibling pair that I can continue a line with. I never really see people on here (excluding some of the more serious breeders) going any further than a mating between the original pair. I love watching people develop their own unique line of fish as to me that is the whole aim of breeding. It's not just about breeding two fish you purchased from someone else, but rather continuing that line using your own eye and standard of quality.

[Sena Hansler]

I agree, we all have to start somewhere. Pet store fish or not, learning is key. Though I do feel rosetails aught to be left as a "do not breed" line.

[ChibreneyDragon]

A lot of new hobbiests dont realize how much space that one spawn will take up, or the fact that you need somewhere for all of them to GO. When I started as a kid, my mother didnt realize that my room would turn into a tank bedecked hot house!

But I did my research, so all of my fish had places to go, whether I was selling at school, or fish store, or donating to the science labs.

The stigma here over breeding for show quality is high, even though it DOES cost a lot for shipping and the fish, even WITHIN american borders. I bought one female dalmation..and she was nearly 60 dollars! And most of that was in shipping!

I dont even have and IBC chapter near me, so if I ever want to buy a fish from a well established breeder, I either need to go on a road trip, or crack out the wallet.

[indjo]

Commenting on the original question;
I personally believe that breeding for "specifics" will weaken some aspects. In the past, I seldom if ever, experienced tail biting nor egg eating. ALL VT and PK I've bred were very easy and produced lots of fry - whether in big tanks or in a small containers. Today, there are too many "behavioral disorders" and breeding bettas can sometimes be a real challenge. . . . even frustrating. There has been too many inbreeding to get the desired traits fixed so it would breed true. But breeders are learning and are trying to make them "healthy" as best they can.

[ChibreneyDragon]

Originally Posted by indjo

Commenting on the original question;
I personally believe that breeding for "specifics" will weaken some aspects. In the past, I seldom if ever, experienced tail biting nor egg eating. ALL VT and PK I've bred were very easy and produced lots of fry - whether in big tanks or in a small containers. Today, there are too many "behavioral disorders" and breeding bettas can sometimes be a real challenge. . . . even frustrating. There has been too many inbreeding to get the desired traits fixed so it would breed true. But breeders are learning and are trying to make them "healthy" as best they can.

This is why I feel there should be a group or IBC chapter that is dedicated to breeding show standard fish from "scratch". Basically taking the steps that the founders of the HM and CT bettas took so that "fresh" genetics can be reintroduced into the show circuit instead of the elite being bred to eachother repeatedly until spawning becomes nigh impossible due to complications.

[ChoclateBetta]

There is such thing as healthy Purebreds. Like Kadie.

[ChibreneyDragon]

Originally Posted by ChoclateBetta

There is such thing as healthy Purebreds. Like Kadie.

There are PLENTY of healthy purebreds! But as they are bred together over and over... That plenty becomes a minority.

[ChoclateBetta]

Kadie is healthy, fast and active. Guppies are so Inbred. That Petstore ones cannot live in Brackish to Marine or atleast not many.

[indjo]

Originally Posted by ChibreneyDragon

This is why I feel there should be a group or IBC chapter that is dedicated to breeding show standard fish from "scratch". Basically taking the steps that the founders of the HM and CT bettas took so that "fresh" genetics can be reintroduced into the show circuit instead of the elite being bred to eachother repeatedly until spawning becomes nigh impossible due to complications.

I'm not 100% sure about the history, it's been years since I read about it. I think the first HM were results of specific mutation (my opinion). Yes they were results from selective breeding from VT - delta - HM. But without the "mutation" they can't become HM (IME).

The logical crossing would be VT x DT - you need more ray branching. This will produce VT version of DT and the genos, VT and VT with wider spread (delta). These deltas must then be crossed to DT to make their rays branch more - eventually making HM. It will take lots of generations . . . not worth while working on. Oh getting the caudal "pointy" is very difficult. TBH I don't know how to make a rounded edged caudal become pointy.

Question; wouldn't breeding HM to VT or PK expand the gene pool? Further crossing to other species like smaragdina, mahachai, and imbillis (some believe the former to be the same species as splendens) - wouldn't this improve the gene pool?

IMO the problem is not a limited gene pool but rather the excessive inbreeding which is often inevitable when perfecting certain traits.

[MattsBettas]

Kind of like what Sena said, I believe that our society has defeated survival of the fittest and thus slowed our evolution no offence anybody. For fish, we only pay attention to color and fins and not behavior or susceptibility to disease.