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Old 01-09-2013, 10:11 PM   #51 
Olympia
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Well that's what I thought but other people say different so I am wondering why they say so..
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:16 PM   #52 
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Bias, ignorance, or other proofs to the contrary?
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:21 PM   #53 
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I also think its a basic misunderstanding of true "inbreeding" and the differences between that and closing the gaps in DNA by limiting the genepool.

In the wild this only happens when a species is left in isolation... and there is close familial breeding...but no real inbreeding in the sense as Humans have taken it.

Some speculate that we are taking the process of evolution and accelerating it without truly understanding the consequences, or what goes on behind that fancy double helix or mystical veil of epigenetics.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:25 PM   #54 
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Fish and foxes are entirely different in their brain functions. My fish jump out a lot being wild and every time I scoop them up and put them back in. I would think if a fox did something like that which only ever gave a negative result, it would quickly learn not to jump.

So far I have been unsuccessful in my attempts to train my bettas not to jump. No matter how many times they end up falling two metres to the ground and getting carpet stuck all over them.

Fish are pretty basic animals. I think a lot is just associative learning and instinct like I mentioned in a previous post.

Also I do think aggression in betta species is very much so linked to spawning. I think without the aggression it would be very difficult to spawn bettas. I believe OFL or someone else a while back, mentioned that they found the more docile bettas to be fairly average spawners.

Like I said even my wild bettas (and some of these are wild-caught so about as 'pure' and untouched as you can get), are quite aggressive to each other from time to time. One of my male and female pairs have torn each other to shreds in the last couple of days for reasons I can't really ascertain. My rutilans female had half her dorsal fin torn off by her male around a day or so before they spawned.

Probably the most peaceful betta species I can think of would be channoides or albimarginata. Multiple males and females are generally able to live very peacefully together in the same tank and mine were always very gentle with smaller tankmates.

Other than that I would say aggression is very much a natural part of these fish. It just varies by degrees based on the species.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:33 PM   #55 
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So does a true wild splendens have the same aggression as a domestic one?
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:39 PM   #56 
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I think splendens must be one of the more aggressive wild species because they were selected over imbellis, smaragdina and others of that complex to be bred for fighting.

But when I had imbellis who are quite similar in behaviour, they didn't have the 'fight to the absolute death' drive that I saw in my male splendens. I had a male splendens get through the divider be nearly beaten to death, and still try to get back in with the other male to continue fighting. That to me is pretty darn aggressive.

That is why I got bored with splendens. I like having fish that I can keep in the same tank and 90% of the time know they aren't going to mutilate or kill each other.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:11 AM   #57 
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They also tested that male and female betta's who were left with their father longer (meaning he wasn't removed right after they were free swimming) were less aggressive during courting. Thought this was all very interesting stuff.
Wild splendens are not as aggressive/vicious as domestic. Isolation will make them aggressive. I often keep my batch together until they die, either with father or on their own. An adult male will keep fights to a minimum, but will not stop it completely. These will never be as aggressive as the ones I jar/isolate. They will flare and fight, but only to a few bites. Only few will be too vicious to be in a sorority. Unlike the isolated ones, that will fight to the bitter end. I do agree that splendens are the most aggressive out of all the Betta group.

IMO/IME color also determine aggressiveness. Light colors are often less aggressive . . . sorry has weaker mentality compared to dark colors. The strongest of all is the wild color (a mixture of black and green/turquoise). Light colors will fight but stress easier than dark colors. This is why lighter colors tend to grow slower than darker colors, though not always. IME the lower mentality in dark colors are Blue and red. I'm not sure if this is still true since this species have been excessively mixed bred. But you won't find a light colored "fighter" until this day.
........................

Deformities do happen regardless how you breed them. But these defects can be minimized. As far as I know OFL has succeeded in minimizing, if not eliminating DT defects. She can breed her DT together with no problem. SO if everyone breeds for Health, it can eventually be eliminated or at least minimized.

The problem is that new breeders often don't know what causes certain defects and will breed them, making it worse. They then distribute these to the local market and spread them. . . . this is also a reason why many don't advise breeding LFS bettas.

Known breeders will always try to avoid breeding unhealthy pairs and will cull the whole batch including the parents. Though they inbreed and sometimes try to make fins larger or thicker, they know what they're doing and will take necessary measures to ensure that their line/s remain healthy. I've heard some claim that their rose line are safe to breed. . . . in fact I've seen someone (forgot who) here breed (I think) Karen's RT and didn't get any deformed fry.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:17 AM   #58 
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Originally Posted by indjo View Post
Wild splendens are not as aggressive/vicious as domestic. Isolation will make them aggressive. I often keep my batch together until they die, either with father or on their own. An adult male will keep fights to a minimum, but will not stop it completely. These will never be as aggressive as the ones I jar/isolate. They will flare and fight, but only to a few bites. Only few will be too vicious to be in a sorority. Unlike the isolated ones, that will fight to the bitter end. I do agree that splendens are the most aggressive out of all the Betta group.

IMO/IME color also determine aggressiveness. Light colors are often less aggressive . . . sorry has weaker mentality compared to dark colors. The strongest of all is the wild color (a mixture of black and green/turquoise). Light colors will fight but stress easier than dark colors. This is why lighter colors tend to grow slower than darker colors, though not always. IME the lower mentality in dark colors are Blue and red. I'm not sure if this is still true since this species have been excessively mixed bred. But you won't find a light colored "fighter" until this day.
........................

Deformities do happen regardless how you breed them. But these defects can be minimized. As far as I know OFL has succeeded in minimizing, if not eliminating DT defects. She can breed her DT together with no problem. SO if everyone breeds for Health, it can eventually be eliminated or at least minimized.

The problem is that new breeders often don't know what causes certain defects and will breed them, making it worse. They then distribute these to the local market and spread them. . . . this is also a reason why many don't advise breeding LFS bettas.

Known breeders will always try to avoid breeding unhealthy pairs and will cull the whole batch including the parents. Though they inbreed and sometimes try to make fins larger or thicker, they know what they're doing and will take necessary measures to ensure that their line/s remain healthy. I've heard some claim that their rose line are safe to breed. . . . in fact I've seen someone (forgot who) here breed (I think) Karen's RT and didn't get any deformed fry.
that explain why my black coppers show so much aggression compair to my pastel blues i had to cut the copper in 4 groups while i pick out pastel to supper grow then in jars n still of all the juvies the black copper,copper n royal blue flare n blow bubbles long before the others but i make them first choise for most people that come n see them
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:51 AM   #59 
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Originally Posted by LittleBettaFish View Post
Fish and foxes are entirely different in their brain functions. My fish jump out a lot being wild and every time I scoop them up and put them back in. I would think if a fox did something like that which only ever gave a negative result, it would quickly learn not to jump.


Fish are pretty basic animals. I think a lot is just associative learning and instinct like I mentioned in a previous post.
I have to disagree on this. The brains may differ, but instinct IS something that is passed on genetically. Temperament and Instinct, the ability to learn from actions by associative learning, these can be passed down. Fish have associative learning, it has been proven.

Aggression or docility are traits that have been PROVEN can be passed... But genetic defects other than, such as psychological issues, or possible hidden intolerance to types of water quality or disease are things that breeders CANT possibly know or look for when they are focused on form alone.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:54 AM   #60 
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Originally Posted by indjo View Post
Wild splendens are not as aggressive/vicious as domestic. Isolation will make them aggressive. I often keep my batch together until they die, either with father or on their own. An adult male will keep fights to a minimum, but will not stop it completely. These will never be as aggressive as the ones I jar/isolate. They will flare and fight, but only to a few bites. Only few will be too vicious to be in a sorority. Unlike the isolated ones, that will fight to the bitter end. I do agree that splendens are the most aggressive out of all the Betta group.

IMO/IME color also determine aggressiveness. Light colors are often less aggressive . . . sorry has weaker mentality compared to dark colors. The strongest of all is the wild color (a mixture of black and green/turquoise). Light colors will fight but stress easier than dark colors. This is why lighter colors tend to grow slower than darker colors, though not always. IME the lower mentality in dark colors are Blue and red. I'm not sure if this is still true since this species have been excessively mixed bred. But you won't find a light colored "fighter" until this day.
........................
This is an interesting theory... And something I would like to look into myself. Would you possibly be interested in videotaping a comparison between the fish you have based on coloration?
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