King and Giant Bettas

[Hallyx]

Good luck, Tamer. Keep us apprised. Post pics.

[indjo]

Fish large enough to be handled can be artificially inseminated. But splendens are too small - whether to milk or injected. This MAY be possible in a lab, but is it worth the trouble? I doubt Asians would do this - the first giants came from Asia (Thailand).

I'm not really sure what you mean by "wild spots" but wild/natural color of splendens also have irid spots. You can't really say there was a cross somewhere up its line. But if it were a hybrid, it should show (some individual) traits like spade caudal, tiny dorsal . . . physical appearances like that. Though these traits would probably be bred out, but a few individual giant bettas would still show them - if they were a hybrid.

Good luck with your giants. Don't forget to make a spawn log and share you experience with everyone.

[dragon tamer]

By wild spots i mean the spotting in the fins of the fish you see that are hybrids of smaragdina etc. Small horizontal black markings or dots or web like spots. They are indicative of a hybrid , like stripes in a savannah cat or rib bars in a bengal or solid markings of a zorse or the cow shape of a beefalo

Fish anatomy is the same regardless of size if someone wanted to milk them they could manage it if only by cutting the fish open and taking what they want, not beyond the scope of the kitchen table - the little things might not survive but I bet I could get the eggs out of a laden hen betta, milt might be more difficult but the larger species male would make it easier than a splendens. Not saying that's what happened just saying More things are possible than some might think worth while and a lab can be categorized in many varied ways. I've seen enough to know a lab is just a room where "science" happens.

Asians have accomplished many difficult and tedious tasks with regards to fish keeping and often in "labs"What's worth it to one man is worthless to another. if I had the money it would be worth creating gametes from germ cells of my neutered male dog in a Korean lab to produce young with my intact female dog. Sooo worth it, but no one else except the people that know them, would think so.

two rich old asians walk int a betta ring and start bragging about how big theirs is, one takes out his giant and all the others are duly impressed, IT WAS WORTH IT.lol

[LittleBettaFish]

Could you even get viable/fertile fry out of a hybrid though? They all come under the same genus of 'Betta' but splendens and mouthbrooders are from entirely different complexes. I just can't see any resulting offspring being viable.

Also the sheer scale in which these fish are produced makes it very unlikely that they were produced by this manner. I don't know why this rumor persists but I think it was just the case of careful selection by farms for larger and larger fish.

[dragon tamer]

Possible ? Sure. There have been hybrids between cats of the genus felis with as far reaching relation as Cougar and ocelot, there is currently a hybrid breed being developed between a domestic and a caracal and there are many other hybrid breeds that are developed out of once classified distant relatives that are now classified as different clades of the same genus akin to this suggestion. The females are often fertile with either of the male parent species and after many generations(with a supposed selection process involved) fertile male hybrid progeny are produced. Sometimes with these hybrids the chromosome count is uneven and an odd count is produced in the first generation. In the case of the safari cat, a hybrid of the domestic Felis lybica from the far east and africa and the Geoffrey's cat of central and south america the odd chromosome count produces gigantism in the F1 offspring.
In the case of other hybrid cats the early generation crosses produce small litters but by the time the males are fertile the litters are well into the normal range of domestic cat litter size even higher for some lines.
I know cats are mammals but it seems mammals would have a harder time of hybridizing than fish birds and reptiles. I could well be wrong about that. On the other hand females of species that are kept with males of another species are usually quite willing to mate with a male that has similar courtship behaviors when isolated from anther choice, males often don't even need that much. It is possible a female splendens would see a huge male mouth brooder as an upgrade acceptable enough to release her eggs and skip town , while he was left to pick up the pieces of the failed romance. I'm just saying possible here.
I know there is a "history" of production that is relatively well documented though I would like to see some solid docs to prove it, some real data. that's just the way I think . Outside the box.

It might even be something worth trying now that I think it through .
Wouldn't have dragons if nobody tried.

[Hallyx]

I suppose, if giant Betta had any characteristics of other Betta forms, I might be cajoled into thinking of cross-clade breeding....but they don't. Although a certain amount has happened and is happening in the wild (evolution), sheer size does not seem to provide sufficient survival impetus to produce large Betta. People provide that impetus. "Mine is bigger than yours." Good one, Tamer.

As in other domestically bred animals, there seems to be a limit to size. Even though the largest Betta, cattle, sheep or dogs are being crossed, each of these animals seems to have been maxed out.

That's why I also have to quibble with Jim Sonnier and others who subscribe to the "giant gene" theory. From the little discussion I've had with giant breeders, their fish don't seem to follow the Punnett square as neatly as do characteristics like color, fin type and scalage.

Having to cross with standard-sized fish, in order to achieve configuration and color goals, really complicates the issue.

As for getting documentation from Asian breeders....ROFLMAO

[dragon tamer]

Rotf!

[indjo]

IMO, fish that has similar physical appearance and spawning habits, can be crossed - both species fertilize eggs while embracing (even though rearing fry differs). Attempting it the natural way may be close to impossible due to color, shape and size difference. But if it can be done artificially, it is possible.

Nevertheless I still think it hasn't been done. Giants are not hybrids - simply because they don't show enough characteristics of the larger wild species. . . . just my opinion.

[MattsBettas]

Bump this should be a sticky!

[indjo]

MattsBettas: it is. But since there are too many stickies in this section, thus they have been simplified into one sticky showing links to all the "once" sticky.