EE breeding

[Option]

I personally do not find EEs very attractive. But I do appreciate how in just about all EEs their pectoral fins are also vividly colored....and this I definitely find quite attractive as in all other varieties of bettas it is rather rare to have the pectoral fins w/ much color on them at all.

[logisticsguy]

One of my Hm males was born with enormous fins. Gigantic as big as Ive ever seen on a betta... So large i wont likely breed him. Not because its hard on him, he swims just fine thank you, but for show it could be too large. Why assume its so awful for these guys to have larger than normal fins. It may take slightly more energy to get around maybe 10% harder but ime betta need exercise too. It is NOT a Handicap. Please dont compare, Ive had to cull fish with crooked spines or deformities and I hate that part of breeding. The EE fish Ive seen, currently dont have one myself seem to move just fine. They are in a tiny aquarium not the ocean. More important is the care of the fish, water quality, regular tank cleaning with a healthy diet. Why paint everyone with unusually large fins on the fish as somehow being cruel. Ive seen animal cruelty up close and this isnt it thanks.

[Skyewillow]

Originally Posted by louisvillelady

Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should!

BEFORE:

AFTER:



BEFORE:

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BEFORE:

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Bred specifically for their looks, and when you check Wikipedia, they have quite the laundry list of heal issues.

BEFORE:

AFTER:


The point of all of those images (despite that they're not bettas), is to reiterate my point: People will breed things to suit their fancies, detrimental to the animal or not.

Your average Joe doesn't give a rip about fish pain, or fish feelings, otherwise they wouldn't have obnoxiously small tanks, and we wouldn't be constantly running into the "just a fish" argument.

I've mentioned the munchkin cat, bred SOLELY for it's appearance. This cat can not act like a normal cat, and are more prone to back injuries.

The pug is a dog who we didn't think looked "good enough" so we bred out it's snout, and bred in wrinkles, and a slew of health issues due to the two.

The bettas at the bottom of the list: The before, wild-type splendens, After, VT EE.

The argument here is that if it WEREN'T for people breeding things to their preferences, we wouldn't have the animals we now have. Would you boycott a pug because it's torture for a dog NOT to have to snout to put it's palet into, and this causes them to choke on their own saliva? Or tell the owners that they're horrible people for encouraging breeders to continue the breed?
Or Himalayan, Sphinx, Bobtail, or Munchkin cats?
Or English Lop rabbits? (they have big ears too)

I'd also like to know how the people who like or breed EE's are any more "cruel" than breeders of short bodied fish, or double tails with shortened spines?

or ANY animal for that matter?

And I agree with Logisticsguy, EE fanciers aren't bad people. Just like VT Fanciers aren't bad, or DT, or Delta, or HM, or CT, or Spade, or Plakat, or any combination thereof.

P.s. that post took a long time to write and google images.

[Myates]

Like with a lot of animals that have become domestic over time.. they change. On their own.

Look at that fox research of many years - bred foxes to become domesticated.. guess what? They started changing their physical features on there own, no help from people.

Just like how we got the dogs we have today.. yes, we refined things, but over time they changed from looking wolfish to looking like the average canine we see walking the alley.

And the bettas changed their looks on their own in time as well - how else could we of gotten long fins from short fins? Hey.. it happened naturally, we just improved upon it to make it more visually appealing.

So in reality.. we just tweaked what naturally happened.. yet mother nature isn't the cruel one for being the first one to create it :)

[Skyewillow]

Originally Posted by Myates

Like with a lot of animals that have become domestic over time.. they change. On their own.

Look at that fox research of many years - bred foxes to become domesticated.. guess what? They started changing their physical features on there own, no help from people.

Just like how we got the dogs we have today.. yes, we refined things, but over time they changed from looking wolfish to looking like the average canine we see walking the alley.

And the bettas changed their looks on their own in time as well - how else could we of gotten long fins from short fins? Hey.. it happened naturally, we just improved upon it to make it more visually appealing.

So in reality.. we just tweaked what naturally happened.. yet mother nature isn't the cruel one for being the first one to create it :)

+1

[dramaqueen]

To each his own. I don't see any problem with EEs. Several people posted that theirs had no problem swimming and going about their everyday life. I don't much care for Des, either but I didn't care for plakats either until I got one. Now I have 3. Lol

[logisticsguy]

Back when my kids were little we gave them water wings to help them swim better. Also recall using something called flippers when I went scuba diving. Its just an extension or bigger fin to help me swim better. I've seen this discussion regarding fin size before here and no conclusive evidence (physics) showing it to be much harder to swim at all with larger fins. Is it possible EE actually have it easier swimming with those fins? The difference would not be all that much either way imo.

[Syriiven]

Both sides of the argument have good points;

- the bettas we love so much today and can find in most lfs' would never be found int he wild
- the different patterns and types are mutations discovered through a lot of hard work from breeders
- its very similar to how we ended up with so many breeds of domesticated animals
- in NATURAL conditions in the wild, no, EE's and other betta with larger fins wouldn't stand a chance. Wild bettas naturally have shorter fins, and are darker, less flashier. For a reason - only the strong survive int eh wild, and our bettas sitting in aquariums wouldn't be able to hande that.
- but our bettas arent meant for the wild, or fighting, and thus fulfill their purpose - appearing as beautiful aquarium fish

Still, some facts to be taken into account - in the wild, animals of any sort with a deformity are usually picked off early on. Cripes, the mothers will cull the young in some species so they don't have to provide for a babe that may not survive to adulthood.

In my opinion, yes, I think excessive finnage can become a danger factor. They droop and get stuck to things, so we provide as few hooks and burrs for their home as we can. Large fins act like sails, so currents can easilly push the fish around. So we reduce filter flow and are gentle with water changes.

But onwards to ability to control their swimming - that depends on how strongly and properly built the betta is under the 'plummage'. If anyone's looked at a non-EE betta their pectorals are small spines with very, VERY thin fin spread between each. The fluttering EE trait is the exact same as the rosetail trait - if properly cared for, yes, you have a happy, healthy betta. But if that x-factor isn't carefully watched and if too much of it isn't culled...your poor fish is going to have troubles. Which you can account for and fix to the best of your abilities, but not EVERY animal with a handicap lives as long as they would if they didn't have that handicap.

There are happy miracle stories all over the world, dogs with two legs, cats with no eyes, bettas born blind......but usually the case is that an animal does it's happiest and best, but eventually they do run out of strength. Eventually, they die a happy death, but in all possibility before they would have if they had all four limbs, etc.

Now before I get flamed...I'm not really taking a side. But to boycott one betta mutation in favor of another is simply being a hypocrite.

People need to remember that these aren't wild-born fish, they're practically man-made, which means they're going to be abused to suit the fancy of man from fad to fad. That's the way of humans. Deal with it, because you own several results of that very fact. Have we been helpful? Many have different opinions on that. Should we have? I'm not sure if it's a relevent question at this point seeing as instead of out-fishing the betta for pets, man's polluting and building over their natural habitat while we enjoy fancy fish over here.

My point is...there's no absolute right or wrong. Like them or hate them, but do so with facts and logic. Research it. Does an EE betta have enough structure to their fin for the extra fluttery bits not to hamper it? What exactly is the lifespan of an x-factor betta vs your typical PK? Where exactly did this all originate? Lots of questions should be looked up before getting into heated debates over bias.

Anyways...I think I've ranted enough...

[Skyewillow]

Well put, Syriiven!

[logisticsguy]

Good post Syriiven. Everyone has a valid opinion here. This is a good discussion and a fine forum topic.