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Old 02-15-2013, 08:33 PM   #91 
Option
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Originally Posted by LadyVictorian View Post
Well then according to your argument halfmoons, doubletails, delta tails, super delta's veiltails, crowntails, crowntail plakats, and halfmoon plakats, rosetails, feather tails, and spade tails are ALL cruel and NO ONE should breed betta because ALL of those tail types are selectively bred and not proven to survive in the wild THUS we shouldn't breed betta's because every tail type and color is unnatural and wrong.
I don't get where you are drawing these conclusions....when did I ever say that it was "cruel" even to breed EEs?? Wanna read all of my posts again?.....because I never said it was cruel nor inhumane to breed any of these show bettas varieties. I was merely arguing the hinderance of their pectoral fins in swimming.

At this point, I'm pretty sure you've got me mixed up with someone else posting on this thread. Either that or you've become too defensive and feel like I'm either with you or otherwise against you.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:05 PM   #92 
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Originally Posted by trilobite View Post
Yeah absolutely, he is straining in his short burst movements due to his large fins. Drag increases with speed, size and shape
Compare
EE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmwxp3vNAf4

Normal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RozPtK3aFf8
Really I do not see any more or less strain on the EE with his pectorals. The only difference really is the longer pectorals look more dramatic when they move because they are larger and flutter but the amount of movement is about the same. The only main difference was the EE stopped moving his pectorals a few more times than the standard and held them close to his sides when using his cadual fin. This I assume is nothing more than an easy adaptation which allows them to push themselves forward faster even with the larger pectoral fins. Perhaps in this sense he does not swim the same as the original but it certainly is far from hurting him or decreasing his quality of life as was stated by the OP.

Also as far as fish swimming goes you would know as Sena said all fins are used in swimming. Cadual ALWAYS moved them forward as this is what this fin is designed for. Pectorals are steering, right to left. Anal and dorsal are for balance. I think the ventrals are also balance as well.

And yes Option you said that EE is a mutation that would not survive in the wild, as are all the other tail types which is true thus according to your argument none of the tail nor colors we have today would be in the wild and this is true...so good thing they are domestic animals and never face the challenges of the wild. And according to your argument something that does not past the test of nature through Evolution is unnatural though we all know mutation and evolution are the same things either forced by nature or by man. So according to your argument of seeing it as unnatural and therefor wrong you would then think you to suspect it's wrong to breed this unnatural tail types to them because it makes it impossible for any of those animals to exist in the wild. Though this is true they are domestic so in short....even ever bringing up an argument like that is trying to compair cats to tigers.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:11 PM   #93 
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Talking about the wild... In the wild, "mother nature" determines who is really the fittest to survive. Our creations (all tail types and colors), our allowance to these mutations and deformities, we become Mother Nature. Which is why we are supposed to be the best we can when breeding... Survival of the fittest isn't as natural, but we should select those strong enough to breed - and preferably from known backgrounds (though we all start somewhere ;) ). Know how some say "well in the wild no one cleans" it works the same way... We have become their environment holder, we have to care for them.

I don't want to breed huge finned HMs, but it's my preference. I want to aim for medium to short length... So the fish doesn't feel the need to trim back his or her fins so they can swim. If you take responsibility, any tail type will flourish and we can create stronger genetics to even out the unstable ones. Well, hopefully anyways.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:13 PM   #94 
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I don't want to breed huge finned HMs, but it's my preference. I want to aim for medium to short length... So the fish doesn't feel the need to trim back his or her fins so they can swim. If you take responsibility, any tail type will flourish and we can create stronger genetics to even out the unstable ones. Well, hopefully anyways.
+100 its important when breeding a fish that can actually swim like a fish.

Yep their fins all serve different purposes, if they didnt serve a purpose they wouldnt have them. The tail pushes and all other fins clamp down gives the fish less resistance to do short fast bursts. When they want to stop they open their dorsal, anal, vents and pecs. When cruising and maneuvering its the pectorals that dominate the forward movement of Bettas.
I recommend reading the article I posted earlier, it describes the many different swimming types that different fish have, its quite interesting.

The dumbo didnt seem able to swim using only his pectorals, he had to use his whole body to get him forwards compared to the normal, who was able to glide around using only his pectorals
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:54 PM   #95 
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Don't forget their lovely slime coat that not only protects them... But allows them to glide with ease through the water.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:37 PM   #96 
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Fun times!

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Originally Posted by louisvillelady View Post
Swimming is swimming no matter what type of animal or human you are. You just swim in a different manner. Swimming is pushing yourself through the water. Watch the video. When the pectoral fin goes forward, the ends of the fins fold backward, causing a drag. When the pectoral fins go backward toward the body, the ends of the fins want to go forward, because of the drag. The physics is there. plain as day right in front of us. Can these fish swim, yes. Can they swim comparatively as well as others, maybe. Do they need to work harder to be able to do these things, yes!
Swimming is swimming and it is different for every species.. and that goes for EE splendens and non EE splendens too. When the fish is at a standstill the fins fold.. yes.. but it's not creating havoc because the fish is at a standstill.

When a fish swims and it pushes off (where large pectorals would come in handy with..) it will hold it's pectorals at it's side, not using them.. so the size then does not hamper the swimming. Tell me when exactly it is hampering the swimming?

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Originally Posted by Option View Post
Good jesus....I mean sharks have big pectorals too (and they don't even undulate) and wait...they suriviv in the wild too!
Well, then why in the world are people being upset that another animal has large pectorals? These aren't wild fish, they don't need to survive predators. So why not have something a bit larger?

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Originally Posted by Option View Post
Yes but LIONFISH became this way over millions (no trillions) of years of what we call EVOLUTION! EVOLUTION! NOT purposely bred mutants like the way EE bettas are! Let me say that again....LIONFISH EVOLVED this way and that is why they can have volkswagon-sized pectoral fins if they want to AND STILL SURVIVE in the wild. EE bettas are mutations that are purposely propagated for the our entertainment and thus their gallon-sized pectoral fins would not stand a chance in nature. Do you get it yet? Let me summarize:

EE bettas = mutants w/ big fins
Lionfish = naturally w/ big fins

Lastly, big fins do NOT equal survival in all fish. ONLY IF IT'S NATURAL do big fins have an advantage! Have you ever taken a course in biology? (and I mean that in the nicest way...I swear)
These mutations (which everything in a common domesticated splenden from the colors to all the tail types, body shape, including the short finned plakats) are mutations.. so for anyone who thinks it's cruel to have EEs then the only fish they should own are wild bettas as it's "cruel" to keep all of the fin types and all different colors (don't forget colors are mutated and wouldn't survive in the wild!!) available due to it not being "normal" in the wild. My VTs have much more trouble swimming then my EEs, it's just the way these fish are. I am sure there are mutations in the wild that the parents didn't cull.. who knows. How about other animals with mutations? They have learned to survive.. and in the wild too. These fish are in a controlled environment and if cared for properly will live a healthy life with no lack of quality due to their fins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trilobite View Post
Yeah absolutely, he is straining in his short burst movements due to his large fins. Drag increases with speed, size and shape
Compare
EE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmwxp3vNAf4

Normal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RozPtK3aFf8
His short bursts? He is in a tiny container, barely any room to turn around.. and if you noticed, when he does swim straight across the container he does it in a smooth line with no issues. He is having "burst movements" when he is at the side flaring and doing the posturing. But when he is actually swimming it is completely normal. You do realize that bettas do not swim in a very long burst.. they push off and swim a couple inches then stop long enough to push off once more. They don't glide for long periods of time.

So again.. kinda moot - they keep their pectorals to their sides when they are in the gliding part of swimming. They only glide for a few inches and then they stop suddenly (but quickly so it looks like they are jerking) and push off once more. So the betta in the video is swimming quite normal for a betta fish, no trouble using his pectorals or getting around at all.

If you notice the red one in the second video he is doing the side posturing.. which isn't dancing but standing still for the most part and keeping sideways to the other betta. You can't compare one betta posturing sideways to another who is swimming back and forth flaring at it's own reflection. There is no comparison at all. And both are swimming quite normal.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:49 PM   #97 
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Right now we have two HM fish with excellent form but very large fins in the spawn tub. I have never seen any swimming problems with either fish and they have been chasing each other around the tub at warp speed. Should I feel guilty about breeding them now because they both have extra large fins?
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:10 AM   #98 
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"His short bursts?..."
I was referring to the video I posted earlier of a hm being hindered during short burst movement due to his long fins. An example of fin size affecting the drag.

Yes, believe it or not I do realise Bettas don't swim in long glides, hence why I said short bursts. The reason fish are able to flatten their fins down is wait for it... to reduce drag

So you are suggesting that an increased surface area actually decreases drag? Thats a very bold claim to make. We have seen increased surface area on the unpaired fins increasing drag, why do you suppose the pectorals to be a different case?

Also sharks have large pectorals because they dont have a swim bladder, their fins are more like plane wings. They need that basic body shape to keep them in the water column. All sharks have those big pectorals and dorsals since its the only way they can stop from sinking
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:54 AM   #99 
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The reason fish are able to flatten their fins down is wait for it... to reduce drag
Excellent point. Everyone just needs to admit that larger surface will create an increase drag and burden on the fish who otherwise have smaller pectorals......this is REGARDLESS of whether you can appreciate it with your eyes or not while watching them.

And again (for the ba-gillionth time) no one is telling you not to breed EEs. I certainly am not one to proclaim this. But EE owners need to quit thinking their EEs are holy enough to defy mortality, physics, predators, and whatever else out there that seem to burden all other creatures on this planet.
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:12 AM   #100 
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Humans will always manipulate anything and everything according to his preference. We can't do anything about it - you either like them or you don't. The same as CT, large finned HM - or Rose, creating OHM . . . and so on. They are ALL PERSONAL PREFERENCE. Some of the things we do does not benefit the animal in the sense that it doesn't improve the quality of life of the animal. We can only either support or avoid them.

This thread/argument is going nowhere and is more of a debate than discussion. For that reason, I'm closing this thread before it gets worst.
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