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Old 02-17-2013, 04:31 PM   #161 
Sparrowhawk
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So I posted about this on the rant thread as well, but I've been feeling especially ranty about it for the last few days and don't have to keep it as short and sweet here...

On Friday night, an acquaintance posted a picture of her new betta on Facebook. I liked it, naturally, because it's a photo of a betta and naawwww, cute! She tagged me in a comment asking questions about why he might not be active, why he was hiding so much, so I helped her to the best of my knowledge and asked if she had a heater, which she did not, but said she was planning on buying one when finances allowed. Fine. Not ideal, but at least she's going to get one, right? We then just chatted for a bit about all the cute decor available, how it's dangerous to be on eBay because of all the cute stuff available., and it was nice..

Until a friend of mine posted. This guy is at best abrasive when he disagrees with someone about a topic. Apparently he has some sort of disorder that prevents him from empathising with people, but that doesn't excuse outright rudeness and derisive comments, right? So he starts talking about how I'm full of it, I don't know anything about betta care, and they don't need heaters and that it's stupid that people keep saying they do.

Okay, so he has an opinion. Rudely stated, but whatever. I'll just ignore the rudeness and carry on my nice conversation with this girl. I politely point out that we're in a different climate to where they don't need heaters, and it is a bit cold here in Melbourne to not be using heaters, and just link to here with the comment: "Look, rather than arguing, I'll simply leave a link to where I learned almost everything I know about these awesome fish and leave it at that."

I thought that'd be the end of the argument, because there was no way to agree on the topic, and I'd politely closed that particular conversation and listed my references before stopping that line of talk. But no. This guy then went on a tirade at me about how I neglect my pets by heating their tanks, that I shouldn't be spouting this nonsense at people because I'll be leading people to also be neglectful and that this had been a long time coming because he's sick of me recommending that people heat their tanks, because that's ultimately shortening their lifespan due to sped up metabolism.

So. I kept civil, attempted to close the argument, but he insisted on raging at me hardcore. After this "neglectful" comment, I did get a bit sarcastic and said "Wow, sorry for taking an interest in something I care about. The rudeness definitely wasn't necessary though." And that earned me more ranting about how I'm an awful fishkeeper.

My partner really took offense to this online abuse after reading the thread, because all the way through it I'd been non-confrontational, and obviously agreeing to disagree on a topic, though I knew his opinion was wrong a flame war wasn't the way to go, but he took it there. The result was me being pretty darn passive, with rage flying at me no matter what I said. So my partner decided to text this guy, because y'know, that's the smart thing to do rather than plaster it all over a public forum for all their friends to see.

Then came the text war. After my partner said to this guy, "You had no right to be ridiculing my girlfriend on a public forum, your rudeness was unacceptable, you do this on a regular basis whenever you disagree with her and enough is enough." but with more colourful language unfortunately, the guy replied with surprising indignation. "How dare you speak to me like this? Blah blah blah. Why are you acting like a guard dog? This has nothing to do with you!" When in fact it had everything to do with him, just like if someone were attacking my partner, I'd rush to his defense, though I know he's perfectly capable of handling it himself, you just don't mess with the people I love. Same with dear friends. But the difference is that I tend to shrink when attacked, especially on a public forum. It's so humiliating being attacked on a place like Facebook. Also, I was not going to stoop to his level, ranting and raving like a lunatic, and participating in a conversation that was going nowhere. My partner messaged this guy of his own accord, not because I told him to, so these arguments were invalid really.

It got to the point where both this guy and his girlfriend (who we'd previously thought an intelligent, headstrong young woman) had basically told us we're horrible people, that they want nothing to do with us anymore, and that I had to sort it all out. Wait... what? I just exited the conversation when it was clear nothing was going to happen except me being raged at, and my partner took offense to how I was being treated and had a go at the offending party. How is it my mess to sort out?

In the end, I got my partner to apologise for his unsavoury language, because taking the high road out of a futile situation is always better than stooping to their level, but I'm still refusing to speak to them, because all that's going to happen is me being told I'm in the wrong, when it is not the case.

The worst part of it was being repeatedly called a neglectful pet owner. I often treat me fish better than myself, because sometimes ALL of my available funds go to them if it's a not-so-great pay week. Sure, eventually I won't need to spend so much money on them once all the plants have grown in, and once Falkor's tank is all decked out nicely, but I'll still be putting in just as much work, and making their lives the best I possibly can. I REALLY take offense to being called neglectful.

I suppose it's lucky that we were already in the process of shifting from the younger crowd to the older crowd. We had been looking for a group of people to befriend who had good values, a strong code of ethics, and not so much politics, and moving from the under 30s to the older people was definitely the right move, even if we're the babies of the group at least we know that people live by their word, and hold themselves accountable for their actions.

Last edited by Sparrowhawk; 02-17-2013 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:01 PM   #162 
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It's always interesting when people show their true colours. You want crazy up the wazoo, you should see how crazy a dog club committee can be.

I believe the speeding up the metabolism/shortening lifespan only occurs when temperate fish are kept at tropical temperatures. Examples that come to mind are certain species of killifish and golden medaka.

I don't even understand his argument against heaters because the bettas in the wild live in quite warm water. Look, here is a link to a profile description of a wild splendens and right at the bottom it says their temperature range is 24-30 degrees celsius. Even some days here in summer you would be struggling to maintain a consistent temperature. I mean we have been having 30 degree days and 13 degree nights!

http://www.ibcbettas.org/smp/species/splendens.html
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:57 PM   #163 
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It's always interesting when people show their true colours. You want crazy up the wazoo, you should see how crazy a dog club committee can be.

I believe the speeding up the metabolism/shortening lifespan only occurs when temperate fish are kept at tropical temperatures. Examples that come to mind are certain species of killifish and golden medaka.

I don't even understand his argument against heaters because the bettas in the wild live in quite warm water. Look, here is a link to a profile description of a wild splendens and right at the bottom it says their temperature range is 24-30 degrees celsius. Even some days here in summer you would be struggling to maintain a consistent temperature. I mean we have been having 30 degree days and 13 degree nights!

http://www.ibcbettas.org/smp/species/splendens.html
The comment about dog club committees being crazier is SCARY! How would one manage a situation like that? O_O

I really don't doubt the information given here, and that in the wild they do live in high temperatures all of the time. During the argument, I was merely trying to diffuse the situation and avoid the one that ended up happening despite that. Everything I have read here has been backed up by sources whenever sources have been requested, so I have no reason to doubt information that is accepted as fact on this forum.

It really was an exercise in futility. For a moment during it though, I was worried he'd pull out a line like, "So how come one of your fish is a chronic tail-biter if you treat him so well, huh?" because I knew that no matter what I said about what I'd been told by people who have many years of expertise under their belt, it'd still be shot down.

BUT! There is some good news. The NLS pellets arrived today, along with the quieter air pump, gravel for Falkor's tank, a new gravel vac and some other goodies. Hooray! Bad news is that one of my non-return valves broke, so I just hope a power outage doesn't happen!
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Old 02-17-2013, 06:29 PM   #164 
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My dad always does that. My fish are very prone to jumping out and even with glad wrap and glass lids covering every hole I do lose a couple fish every now and then. So not only do I feel terrible about losing the fish I then feel like the world's worst fish murderer because he goes on about it.

Don't worry too much about the check valve. I don't have any on my sponge filters and they haven't back-siphoned yet *touches wood*.

Good to hear your NLS finally arrived though. What air pump did you end up going with? I am surprised you don't enjoy the ambiance that a noisy air pump creates in a room.
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Old 02-17-2013, 06:38 PM   #165 
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Originally Posted by LittleBettaFish View Post
My dad always does that. My fish are very prone to jumping out and even with glad wrap and glass lids covering every hole I do lose a couple fish every now and then. So not only do I feel terrible about losing the fish I then feel like the world's worst fish murderer because he goes on about it.

Don't worry too much about the check valve. I don't have any on my sponge filters and they haven't back-siphoned yet *touches wood*.

Good to hear your NLS finally arrived though. What air pump did you end up going with? I am surprised you don't enjoy the ambiance that a noisy air pump creates in a room.
That would be horrible. :(

That's good to hear about no problems without valves though! *also touches wood* Hehe.

I went with the smallest Rena pump on the Age of Aquariums site. So much quieter! My partner had a lot of trouble sleeping with the noisier pump in our bedroom, I didn't mind too much, but he's from the country and used to total silence when he's sleeping, even the cars passing by on the street bother him - we live pretty close to Chapel street, so if he's working weekends, music from the noisier nightclubs is a problem too. He's getting used to it though, heh. I've lived here my whole life though, so I'm used to noisy nightlife.

Forgot to say cheers for the link earlier, it'll definitely come in handy to link people to if they have a bone to pick with me again when it comes to heating tanks.
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Old 02-17-2013, 06:39 PM   #166 
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Chronic tail biter - these fish have been repeatedly bred to have long, unnaturally flowy, colorful fins. Most tail biters will bite their tails because of the weight, and the weight is unnatural - you won't find a betta like Falkor in the wild because they don't look that way in the wild. It happens because of humans - not necessarily greed, but it has a thing to do with it. They were likely originally bred to look like that because someone wanted to make money selling beautiful looking fish.

In any case, that is not the fish's fault that he/she was bred that way, and a fish should not be given up on because it was bred to have unnaturally long, heavy, colorful fins, but the tail biting is not your fault, nor the fish's. It is simply the fact that they were bred for a purpose of appealing looks.

I'm terribly sorry that some people are incredibly ignorant, but it happens. I would have used my rhetorical wit to make him feel/look like an idiot while still stating actual facts, using logic, and not attacking him, but some people just really don't get it. In that case, anyone who happens to be keeping an eye on the convo is going to think he's making an ass of himself even if they don't comment.

He will either continue to live on in his ignorance or eventually realize that he was wrong, but it probably won't change the fact that he's unwilling to admit it.



Side note: technically, he is correct that warmer temps speed up their metabolism and make them age faster, but it doesn't have that big of an impact on lifespan. Lifespan depends on the genetic strength of the fish and how well it is cared for. Colder temps might slow their metabolism, but it won't help them thrive and will make them more susceptible to disease.

And I do believe that Hallyx had a betta live for 7 years in a heated tank
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Old 02-17-2013, 06:52 PM   #167 
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Chronic tail biter - these fish have been repeatedly bred to have long, unnaturally flowy, colorful fins. Most tail biters will bite their tails because of the weight, and the weight is unnatural - you won't find a betta like Falkor in the wild because they don't look that way in the wild. It happens because of humans - not necessarily greed, but it has a thing to do with it. They were likely originally bred to look like that because someone wanted to make money selling beautiful looking fish.

In any case, that is not the fish's fault that he/she was bred that way, and a fish should not be given up on because it was bred to have unnaturally long, heavy, colorful fins, but the tail biting is not your fault, nor the fish's. It is simply the fact that they were bred for a purpose of appealing looks.
Yeah, it's unfortunate. If I had come across all the information about tail biters, and the reasons for it, I probably wouldn't have got Falkor, or any long-finned bettas, and stuck to PKs and HMPKs. Sure, it would've meant getting bigger tanks, but it breaks my heart to see him do it, and it's not his fault. Still wouldn't have been able to avoid the situation with Feyd though, because he was given to us as a surprise (*headdesk* love him to bits, but pets as presents?) but yeah...

Quote:
I'm terribly sorry that some people are incredibly ignorant, but it happens. I would have used my rhetorical wit to make him feel/look like an idiot while still stating actual facts, using logic, and not attacking him, but some people just really don't get it. In that case, anyone who happens to be keeping an eye on the convo is going to think he's making an ass of himself even if they don't comment.

He will either continue to live on in his ignorance or eventually realize that he was wrong, but it probably won't change the fact that he's unwilling to admit it.
The reason I didn't attempt to outwit him, or deliberately make him look stupid was because I knew he'd fly into even more of a rage, and that whole thing would've been easily visible from an outside point of view. I preferred to go with a passive approach, and just cite my references and exit the conversation, because then to any intelligent onlooker it's just rage directed at someone passively attempting to have a discussion. *shrug*

Quote:
Side note: technically, he is correct that warmer temps speed up their metabolism and make them age faster, but it doesn't have that big of an impact on lifespan. Lifespan depends on the genetic strength of the fish and how well it is cared for. Colder temps might slow their metabolism, but it won't help them thrive and will make them more susceptible to disease.

And I do believe that Hallyx had a betta live for 7 years in a heated tank
Oh, I didn't doubt that heat speeds up their metabolism, it's been mentioned here more than a few times (and really, I'd take the forum's word over an angry dude any day) but as you've said, people on here have had them live for many years in properly heated tanks. That kinda negates the contention that I'm "killing them", doesn't it? Heh.
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:23 PM   #168 
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Oh, another good thing that's happened today... Tested Feyd and Weehawk's tanks, and 0 ammonia showing when usually, after doing a 50% change on Friday I'd have to do another today. Stem plants rock! Haha. Naturally I'll still have to do Falkor's, he's got no live plants, but changing a single tank's water is a lot easier than doing three in an evening!
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:29 PM   #169 
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I can't wait to get my live plants :DDDDDD woo!!

And as for trolls such as him - I would at least comment some facts to counteract his stupid arguments, like you did, just because I wouldn't want some outsider watching the conversation to think he was right.

I'd use facts and logic and would not be able to just leave the conversation just because I cannot stand when others try to spread myths about the proper care for these fish. I'd like to think I am very knowledgeable about their care and that I have many facts and credible resources. Hopefully, anyone who saw the whole thing decided that you were right and he was spewing crap he heard from the idiots in the walmart fish section.
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:44 PM   #170 
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I can't wait to get my live plants :DDDDDD woo!!

And as for trolls such as him - I would at least comment some facts to counteract his stupid arguments, like you did, just because I wouldn't want some outsider watching the conversation to think he was right.

I'd use facts and logic and would not be able to just leave the conversation just because I cannot stand when others try to spread myths about the proper care for these fish. I'd like to think I am very knowledgeable about their care and that I have many facts and credible resources. Hopefully, anyone who saw the whole thing decided that you were right and he was spewing crap he heard from the idiots in the walmart fish section.
According to him, he did a class on fish as a minor (with a major in entomology) so a university degree trumps my internet research. If it were simply "the pet store told me so" it'd be a lot easier to counter his argument, as I would appear more educated than he. As it is, the converse is apparent: I am uneducated, due to only doing internet research, no matter how extensive (I spend at least a few hours on here, each and every day when I have computer access, even if I don't post, I'm reading) because uni education is always right. Or so goes his argument at least.

Personally, I don't really trust anyone that refers to the animals they studied as "test subjects" as he did, but hopefully anyone viewing the conversation will look over the information provided by both parties, note that one cited sources and maintained a level head, while one cited no sources other than "I learned this stuff at uni x number of years ago! BLAHHHH!". The person who asked for my help is actually a veterinary student at university, and in her own words, she has the ability to sift through information and discover whether or not it is bull. The two of them are closer friends than she and I, but for some reason she asked me for information rather than him. Coincidence? She was well aware of his studies, yet sought me out for advice on bettas, presumably because my passion for them is plastered all over my profile and photo albums on there.

If it were someone with no background in animals, I would not have stopped there, and it would've turned very ugly, from his side at least. I would've remained civil, though I'd be uttering every expletive under the sun IRL, just not on FB.

The attack from the guy was, in his words, "a long time coming, due to your spreading misinformation whenever someone asks you about these fish" but I know I get my information from reputable sources and am confident in this forum's ability to guide me correctly in my fishkeeping ventures.

Ridding my life of toxic people, or as Hadoken Kitty said in the rant thread, Vortexes of Doom, is always good though drama-filled and sometimes painful while you're in the process of booting them out of your life.
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