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Old 02-20-2013, 09:53 PM   #641 
Viva
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Originally Posted by Granberry View Post
Owners of pit bull dogs and restricted dogs licensed within 60 days of the ordinance's effective date could keep their dogs only under restricted conditions, including:

if the dog is licensed, spay/neutered, vaccinated against rabies, and has microchip identification;

the owner is at least 21 years old and has at least $100,000 US liability insurance

the dog is kept indoors or locked in a secured pen, with government-provided warning signs posted at entrances to the property;

when off the property, the dog must be kept in a secure transportable container or must wear a muzzle while held on a four-foot long non-extensible leash;

the dog may not be sold or transferred to anyone outside the owner's immediate family
the owner must notify the government immediately if the dog is loose, stolen, at-large, unconfined, has mauled, bitten, attacked, threatened, or in any way menaced another animal or human, or has died.[30]
So basically give us money, and we'll let you keep your dogs. Oh and after you pay to get all the fencing, insurance, microchip, etc. you still won't be able to enjoy your dog in any public areas in Denver. That's got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. If you said that to a 5 year old, they'd look at you confused and say "And how's that fair?" Government purposely made it so most people wouldn't be able to keep them. They made up the restrictions so people couldn't say that it was IMPOSSIBLE to keep your dog, so they simply made it IMPROBABLE. It's a cliche politician move.

Also, another reason the dog owners didn't obey the new laws was because they stupidly thought that after their innocent dog was confiscated they were not going to be harmed. They were wrong, and paid with the life of their family member.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:03 AM   #642 
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I'm sorry, I can't help but feel emotional when INNOCENT dogs are killed because of the dumbest law in history!
And I'm fairly certain that NEITHER of you are even watching the videos I posted or thoroughly reading the links you(granberry) posted.(which BTW states the family did everything to keep their pet that was deemed "dangerous". You simply don't care, you're just pointing out the negatives and not even bothering to see there ARE postives. YES there are real dangerous pit bulls out there. YES they CAN in fact be saved through proper training and educating their owners. YES some of them are too far gone to be saved.

By you refusing to educate yourself about these animals, you're not helping the problems these dogs are facing. You're adding to the problem. You're adding to the thousands of innocent dogs that will be killed. And I didn't say Lennox was more important because professional were involved. In case you haven't noticed, the US has it's own problem to deal with right now.(which is totally off topic)

Here are some links to give you the TRUTH about BSL and how it really ISN'T going to solve the problem we're having with pit bulls and pit bull type dogs. Wither you read them or not, is your problem. Don't come back and wonder where the great dogs have gone. Because it will be partly your problem. The people who love these dogs are currently standing up and fighting for them. You're just sitting there saying "that dog breed has bit countless of people! get rid of it!" The same words were uttered with the chow chow, german sheppard, doberman, rottweilers and now pit bulls.
Punishment of the Innocent | Stop BSL
Lennox Killed Because of Breed Specific Legislation
The Truth About BSL
The Truth About Pitbulls
If these dogs in these videos are so dangerous they'd be attacking everything they deem a threat. In which they are not. Why can't you see there ARE good and innocent pit bulls and pit bull types? Why go and kill are the good dogs? Just because some people cannot educate themselves. Punish those who abuse the animals. INCREASE the penalty for abusing these animals.
Pit Bulls || Get Off My Back - YouTube
The playful Pit bulls of Youtube! - YouTube
This video may have content you may not like American Pit Bull - Killer Canine or Family Friend? - YouTube


In order to make a breed negative, humans must make it so. In order to make a breed positive, humans must make it so.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:07 AM   #643 
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And Granberry, since you cannot find anything that isn't negative about the breed, here is the dog license that you said the family never had. Straight from their FaceBook.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:15 PM   #644 
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You're right on one thing....I haven't looked at any of the videos you posted. They're simply not credible to me. This quote from the court persuades me: "Whilst there is an exemption scheme to which dogs of this type (pit-bull terrier type) may be admitted as an alternative to destruction, there were no such measures that could be applied in this case that would address the concerns relating to public safety. The Council’s expert described the dog as one of the most unpredictable and dangerous dogs he had come across." Facebook and youtube...not so credible.

Fishy, you spend a lot of time talking about these "innocent dogs", but I have not once heard you offer a solution for what to do about the "guilty" ones. In every situation where it's been stated that someone was attacked, you blame the victim...even the toddlers.

I have asked you before, and I'll ask again: What do you believe is a solution?

It has to be constitutional. You can't simply say "education" because people cannot be forced to think a certain way.

It has to be affordable. I already pay too much of my income in taxes, and I don't want to pay any more, thanks.

It has to be effective. No more elderly women chewed to bits while carrying in her groceries.

In my view, the only solution is the legal route. We can't force people to train their dogs not to bite - heck, I can't even seem to persuade you that dogs that bite are bad dogs - but we can easily require they be muzzled, fenced, controlled, or forfeit their pet. We can't force bad owners not to breed, but I'd like the breed clubs to investigate their ability to use their influence to deny registration to the offspring of untitled parents.

But most of all, we have to be able to have a calm, rational dialogue. This seems difficult for you, and sadly, I think you're representative of the pit bull owners that I have come across.

I have said my piece, probably more times than was necessary, and I'm tired of seeing my own avatar all over the place, so I am going to exit the conversation. Anything else I'd have to say would be kicking a dead horse. Which, actually, when I was young, my family DID drive by a calf that was being viciously attacked by 4 or 5 dogs. Ugh, it was terrible. His ears were shredded and his face was so torn up. Fortunately, my dad ran up and got the owner. Dad ran back over to shoo the dogs away again, but the rancher lagged behind a bit. I guess he had to load his rifle. He told dad "No, don't shoo them off" and actually started cautiously petting them. Then he promptly tied a rope around their necks, got them into the back of his truck, and told dad he had to get rid of dogs like that. Gives me shivers, but hey, those cattle are his livelihood. A little bit of BSL would have protected those dogs...kept them penned up, out of trouble.

Last edited by Granberry; 02-21-2013 at 12:18 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:50 PM   #645 
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I posted the solution quite a few times in this thread. It's not my fault that you don't actually read anything that may help what you view is so negative.
YouTube is quite a creditable source, I'm sorry you fail to see it. I posted a few videos, 2 of which were documentarys about pit bulls and how BSL affects them as a whole. The others showed clips of well behaved and well mannered dogs out in public. Surrounded by people and other dogs. Neither one of them showed any upset or aggression.

There is NO evidence showing breed banning increases public safety. What increases public safety is more police raids. Police raid places all the time for drugs. But you hardly see them raiding for dog fighting. Start there. INCREASE the penalty for dog fighting, dog neglect and dog abuse. Dogs are getting used as weapons. If people want to misuse dogs, then they deserve to rot in jail. If the dog(s) they misused can be rehabbed, then by all means save the dog(s) from (also) paying the price for it's idiotic owner(s). And if the dog(s) is too far gone then the best thing would to put it out of it's misery.

Drugs are produced and shipped so much faster than dangerous dogs are. If a force is established, you can decrease the numbers of dangerous dogs on the street. Decrease them and the public is safer.

Lastly they aren't "innocent dogs". They really are innocent dogs. Dogs that haven't showed a shred of aggression towards anyone or anything doesn't deserve to be treated as such.

Last edited by FishyFishy89; 02-21-2013 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:53 PM   #646 
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I'm pretty sure if you talk to farmers, particularly those who live on the urban fringe, all kinds of dogs are allowed to roam free because people seem to have this notion that because they are in the country their dogs don't have to be confined to their property.

BSL will never stop stupid owners from having dogs that harass livestock or dogs that bite people. I see some really scary stuff at my breed specific dog club and the owners are just completely oblivious. Some of the dogs there are just so nasty that I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole.

I think our breed survey should do more to test the true character and nerve of the breed. The temperament test is an absolute joke. It's essentially getting your dog to walk with you through a small 'crowd' of talking people. I'm pretty sure that any dog who has been down a busy sidewalk or gone to the shops should be able to cope with that. You have to have a pretty unstable dog to fail it.

Dogs that are guilty of attacking a human should be destroyed. With that said, I don't mean the family dog that gives the unsupervised child a warning nip. It seems people nowadays have no idea how to read dogs. When I was younger, if you got nipped because you were taunting the dog or you had run up to some strange dog and tried to smother it with a hug, it was your own fault. Dogs have their limits like people, and biting is very much of way of them communicating that they are uncomfortable with what is going on.

However, any dog that attacked a human and caused serious injury or death, should be immediately seized by council and destroyed. I feel the same about loose dogs that attack and injure/kill other dogs. There should be no option for appeal. I feel sorry for the dogs that their owners have failed them, but for a pet dog to attack a human without provocation is a serious taboo.

However, I also don't think having to force every single pitbull looking dog into wearing a Hannibal Lecter style face mask and have them confined to Alcatraz style runs and kennels is the right way to go about it.

It seems like whenever laws pertaining to dogs are passed, it is the responsible owner who is made to suffer. It's like all the strict guidelines we have here in regards to breeding dogs. Yet you still see puppy mills churning out puppies by the thousands each year and the same BYBs advertising their puppies in the free classifieds.

I feel that if the pitbull breed and other breeds that fall under the 'vicious' dog banner are to survive, there needs to be a big clean-out of those who are breeding these dogs. Breeders should be forced to rigorously temperament test, prove and health test their dogs before breeding. This includes both sexes as there is no use having a healthy, proven stud and crossing him with someone's back yard bred female. Facilities should be required to be inspected once or twice a year to make sure they comply with set standards and that dogs are kept confined to the property at all times unless in the presence of the owner or a professional (such as a vet).

I think indiscriminate breeding has undermined many breeds. Pitbulls were never bred to be human aggressive. Dog reactive yes (because that was one of their original purposes) but to show aggression towards a human was considered a serious fault. Those dogs would normally have been culled from the gene pool, but now that dog fighting is illegal and has been forced underground and pitbulls are associated with a 'tough guy' image, you get a lot of dogs being bred that shouldn't.

But people also have to realise that not every breed is intended to go up to strangers with their tail wagging wanting to be patted. This is the AKC breed standard for German Shepherds:

Quote:
The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them
Yet I see so many nervy unstable shepherds out there that it just breaks my heart.

It is a hard problem to have to solve, but I do not think a blanket ban will solve anything.

A new breed will just be du jour and the whole cycle will continue until all we are left with is toy breeds and mutts.
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:04 PM   #647 
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Originally Posted by LittleBettaFish View Post
I'm pretty sure if you talk to farmers, particularly those who live on the urban fringe, all kinds of dogs are allowed to roam free because people seem to have this notion that because they are in the country their dogs don't have to be confined to their property.

BSL will never stop stupid owners from having dogs that harass livestock or dogs that bite people. I see some really scary stuff at my breed specific dog club and the owners are just completely oblivious. Some of the dogs there are just so nasty that I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole.

I think our breed survey should do more to test the true character and nerve of the breed. The temperament test is an absolute joke. It's essentially getting your dog to walk with you through a small 'crowd' of talking people. I'm pretty sure that any dog who has been down a busy sidewalk or gone to the shops should be able to cope with that. You have to have a pretty unstable dog to fail it.

Dogs that are guilty of attacking a human should be destroyed. With that said, I don't mean the family dog that gives the unsupervised child a warning nip. It seems people nowadays have no idea how to read dogs. When I was younger, if you got nipped because you were taunting the dog or you had run up to some strange dog and tried to smother it with a hug, it was your own fault. Dogs have their limits like people, and biting is very much of way of them communicating that they are uncomfortable with what is going on.

However, any dog that attacked a human and caused serious injury or death, should be immediately seized by council and destroyed. I feel the same about loose dogs that attack and injure/kill other dogs. There should be no option for appeal. I feel sorry for the dogs that their owners have failed them, but for a pet dog to attack a human without provocation is a serious taboo.

However, I also don't think having to force every single pitbull looking dog into wearing a Hannibal Lecter style face mask and have them confined to Alcatraz style runs and kennels is the right way to go about it.

It seems like whenever laws pertaining to dogs are passed, it is the responsible owner who is made to suffer. It's like all the strict guidelines we have here in regards to breeding dogs. Yet you still see puppy mills churning out puppies by the thousands each year and the same BYBs advertising their puppies in the free classifieds.

I feel that if the pitbull breed and other breeds that fall under the 'vicious' dog banner are to survive, there needs to be a big clean-out of those who are breeding these dogs. Breeders should be forced to rigorously temperament test, prove and health test their dogs before breeding. This includes both sexes as there is no use having a healthy, proven stud and crossing him with someone's back yard bred female. Facilities should be required to be inspected once or twice a year to make sure they comply with set standards and that dogs are kept confined to the property at all times unless in the presence of the owner or a professional (such as a vet).

I think indiscriminate breeding has undermined many breeds. Pitbulls were never bred to be human aggressive. Dog reactive yes (because that was one of their original purposes) but to show aggression towards a human was considered a serious fault. Those dogs would normally have been culled from the gene pool, but now that dog fighting is illegal and has been forced underground and pitbulls are associated with a 'tough guy' image, you get a lot of dogs being bred that shouldn't.

But people also have to realise that not every breed is intended to go up to strangers with their tail wagging wanting to be patted. This is the AKC breed standard for German Shepherds:



Yet I see so many nervy unstable shepherds out there that it just breaks my heart.

It is a hard problem to have to solve, but I do not think a blanket ban will solve anything.

A new breed will just be du jour and the whole cycle will continue until all we are left with is toy breeds and mutts.
+1000000 To the level-headed LBF.
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:26 PM   #648 
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The only thing I can say is my brother in law's wife has a pitbull and I've brought my two year old over to their house many times. The only thing I've ever worried about is the dog accidently knocking him over. Their pit is less aggressive than my pomeranian. That dog will basically submit to my son and just play with him, very gently. He lets him take a toy right out of his mouth. Whereas my pom is not quite as friendly, he growls and nips.

It's all in the dog, the single dog you are looking at. Not all dogs are "good" dogs, well bred or things like that. Back yard breeders or people who inbreed the dogs and them sell them as "purebred" sometimes have issues. But it's not a breed thing, it's a breeding and raising thing. I am pretty sure that my pom came from a bad home when I got him. He's not been abused in my care but he obviously has some defensive aggression.

I can't say that no dog is "naturally" aggressive. Of course some were bred that way. But a kind hand when raising the dog makes a difference as well as good breeding.

That said, I don't usually look for a certain breed of dog and avoid others when picking an animal. I spend a bit of time with it and see how it reacts to certain things. You can usually gauge what kind of a dog it will be (with good training) within a little while. Aggression can sometimes be obvious but not always.

But that's one pitbull. Not all are raised with the love he was(that dog was babied like all get out).

All these laws regarding pitbulls really suck but you need to comply with the law, no matter what. It's not fair but who said life was fair? If you really want to have/keep your pit you'll probably have to move. The image of the mean pit isn't likely to change no matter how much you insist that yours is a fine dog. I've no interest in getting a large breed dog but I'm certainly not against them or anything. I just think you need to comply with your local laws no matter how BS they are. If you decide to remain ignorant of the law or just decide to go against it then it is your fault something happened to your dog. I know it seems cruel but it's the truth. It's really no different than fish, is it? If you remain ignorant on how to keep a fish and it dies it is your fault.

As far what we can do to change it... I don't know. Better breeding and raising would probably be a good start. Buying from real breeders rather than people just "selling their puppies" like my husband did is probably a good thing also. But it's really hard to force something onto people like proper training and buying from breeders.

Example. Why pay hundreds or thousands for a well bred dog when I can go on craigslist and buy a puppy for less than $200? The average person who just wants a "pet" is going to do the cheaper route. They want a dog for their kid, perfectly normal. But they don't want to buy an expensive one. I mean, who wants to spend tons of money on anything these days anyway? But most people see pets as "disposable", even dogs. They don't like it, they can "get rid of it" via shelter, internet or the vet.

Anyway... I don't really know what we can do to change it. Shoving facts, pictures and videos down people's throat isn't going to change anything, it's just going to make them throw your voice in the "crazy" pile if you're obsessing over it.

And LBF, you are my hero.
"When I was younger, if you got nipped because you were taunting the dog or you had run up to some strange dog and tried to smother it with a hug, it was your own fault."

I live by this even know. Any dog can be made aggressive in the right situation. If you run up and glomp it, it might bite. This is not the fault of the owner, it's the fault of the idiot who got bit. I did this as a kid. I hugged my Godmother's dog so tight that it bit me. It was my own fault for being stupid. And I stand by the same thing with my pom. My son will run up and just bug my dog and after a while of this he growls/bares teeth/nips. It's his way of saying "leave me alone now". Of course my son is only two and I jump in and explain why this is happening and he's gotten better about it. My dog is defensive aggressive, I know this. The kid does not so it's my responsibility to monitor the situation. Any dog owner knows you can't just have an animal and not watch over it, care for it, monitor it. And if your dog is somewhat aggressive then you really need to monitor the situation.

If I felt for one moment that my pom would hurt my son, seriously hurt him, I would not have this dog anymore. But he never nips hard, barely leaves a mark on the boy.

And you are most correct, it IS the responsible owner who trains their dog well that suffers because of the ones who do not. The ones who really don't care enough to do anything with their dog but to "own" it. That is not a dog to them, it is property. And that kinda makes me sick. It's like the people in my area keep their dogs only outside and their cats are free to roam the neighborhood(please keep in mind we are north of Dallas, lots of traffic and we have coyotes AND now we even have cougars)...why? Why have an animal if you will do nothing with it, not spend time with it. I see no purpose in keeping an "outside" dog outside only unless you spend a LOT of time outside. I do not. It is too hot in here. So my dog is an inside dog. He sleeps under my pillow. He licks my husband's face for 10 minutes when we go to bed. This dog is a happy dog. An unhappy dog might be more likely to bite because it was abused or neglected.

Anyway. What it comes down to is the fact that poor owners are basically ruining everything for everyone else. And it's probably getting to be too late to do anything about it.

I do feel the frustration of people who own dogs that everyone says are "mean". I live with my inlaws and they have lots of cats. If my dog wanders out of my room and one of the cats are in the hall my MiL freaks out and says to the cat "get back in here or the dog will kill you". This really hurts my feelings because my dog is trained(not well, I admit. But he's a good dog really) and I know in my heart he won't do anything. But it makes me want to cry when she accuses my dog of being bad like that. Even my husband, who is really annoyed by my dog 80% of the day and doesn't always like the dog will stand up for this one thing. I can't tell you how many times she has seen my dog actually run from the cats. He stays away from them because he is scared. There are two he will "chase" and try to play with but mostly he stays away. Her cat likes to try and come into our room and well, the dog doesn't want the cat in HIS room. So he barks. He doesn't chase or bite, he keeps a safe distance. But he does make a fuss. And she still thinks no matter how many times she sees this or we tell her "the dog is afraid of the cats!" she insists he will kill one of them. I know he won't. But it's proof that shoving information down someone's throat does not change their mind. Some people are wired that way with their prejudiced in place.

Anyway. Think that's enough of my two cents :X I don't know if it means anything or not but I felt like I wanted to put my own thoughts out there.
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:45 PM   #649 
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My mum sometimes used to take our older girl to pet expos and such as good breed publicity (she is German Shepherd not pitbull). One time our girl was standing next to my mum with their backs turned and a small child came up without any warning and just grabbed her in a hug around the hindquarters. Mum said they both (her and our dog) jumped about a foot in the air until our dog saw it was only a child and settled back down.

People seem to be a lot dumber nowadays in regards to animals. I don't know if it's because of a change in demographics or a move away from farms and into cities, but never in a million years would my mum have let me run up to a strange dog like that. My mum had to explain that while our dog was fine, some dogs (particularly when in what is usually a fairly stressful and overstimulating environment) might not be.

The father of our dog is one example of how people can draw the wrong conclusions based on only a limited exposure. At shows and dog club, he is quite cocky and aloof, and when all the intact open males go into the ring they usually are pretty fired up and there can be a bit of smack talk going on.

My mum is friends with his owner and so I have been to his house several times. He lives with three young girls and he is just impeccably mannered. He doesn't react to anything they do, and he likes chasing his ball around and having a roughhouse with me if I visit.

If you only saw him at the show you might think he was a slightly aggro dog. But I have seen him meet some of his puppies down at the dog club and it could not be further from the truth.

This is why I believe our breed has a fund to fight any BSL that might be legislated against us. I've found Joe Public is ignorant as heck when it comes to dogs, and what might be appropriate or expected behaviour to those with experience (such as the mature intact males not wanting to be friends), could be perceived as dangerous or aggressive to someone who has little knowledge of dogs and how they behave.
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:57 PM   #650 
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I'm unsubscribing... all this is too much for me!
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