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Old 02-27-2013, 10:07 PM   #21 
Myates
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VTs tend to actually be hardier than the "fancy" ones now that are all the rage. You are very correct Feng, a "gem" that is a VT or a "gem" that is an HM, PK, CT or whathaveyou is still a "gem" and the same regardless of fin types. Just because one group - the IBC - doesn't show VTs (anymore, at this moment) does not mean they are any less of a quality of fish than another fin type. It's because HMs, CTs, PKs are a bit newer that people go nuts over them.. they are like a fad.. one day they will perfect the rosetail so that they are breedable and people will go nuts for those.

You can't say that this one specific tail type of a fish is any less of a "gem"/fish than another.. they are the exact same fish with different variations of fins. No one is better nor less than the other.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:09 PM   #22 
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Originally Posted by MattsBettas View Post
Why are the other tail types worth more and rarer fenghung? By your logic, they should all be the same price.
Because they are the new "thing/it/fad/fashion" right now.
They are NOT rarer.. all chain stores now carry every fin type available - EVERY. You can not say the mom and pop ones count, as they get their stock mainly from breeders. But as for any other big store, you will find every fin type in stores - and not talking about a specific store, but in general.

They are not rarer online either - in fact you will find more HMs and HMPKs online than you will find VTs.. which makes the VTs more rarer if we go by your logic. :)

I will correct myself here.. some people prefer the spread of the fins on HMs - not everyone likes/breeds them because they are the new "hot item". But it's the same for people who love VTs.. they love how they look. And why should a breeder be punished and talked down to because they chose a certain type of fin over another? How is this going to directly affect any other person that is not purchasing the fish from the breeder? It's not.. so why do we argue about it? Why not help? I will warn about how it could be difficult to sell VTs, but if this person has a store willing to take them.. then I'm all for it! They get a chance to live in a home at least..

Last edited by Myates; 02-27-2013 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:15 PM   #23 
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The VT phenotype is dominant. HM is, by far, much more recessive. DTs are associated with a lot more deformities. Others are still recessive to VTs. Bettas are priced higher based on this principle. It's simply economics... If something is more readily available and less labour intensive to produce, prices stay low. It does not necessarily mean less people want veiltails. It just mean that there is more supply.

Last edited by Fenghuang; 02-27-2013 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:16 PM   #24 
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Originally Posted by Vizja13 View Post
Mattsbettas, veiltails are not "undesireable," it's your PREFERENCE that makes them like that, to you. Some people prefer veiltails to other types of fish! They are stunning fish, albeit common thanks to pet stores, and any type, when bred responsibly, can be worth a ton to anyone.

Starting with petstore stock for VTs MIGHT not be the smartest idea, since they have been "milled" for so long that they do seem to have moved away from the ideal, but when it comes down to it, breeding is about each individual's goals. We never would have gotten our CTs, Double Tails, and Halfmoons if someone hadn't strayed from the established ideal to create something new.

As for your statement about "And you really shouldn't be breeding for a couple fish," isn't that what BREEDERS do? They ship the rest off to shows and homes and never hear about them again, except for the few they keep to continue their line. As a new breeder, you probably won't have a line producing exemplary show or breeding stock without a lot of work. By allowing the father to cull the fry (if, indeed, the father can be left with the fry) you are actually starting with the healthiest, strongest fish you could have gotten! The number is smaller, so there is less competition for resources (and less growth-inhibiting pheromone released) and the remaining fish can grow stronger. Yeah, this isn't a "natural scenario," but with survival of the fittest courtesy of dad, you get the best health of the spawn, and from there can pick the best for your desired traits such as finnage and color.
What voice of reason!
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:24 PM   #25 
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Myrates, go in and count the number of vt fish to all others. As of now, there are 446 hm and 418 hmpk on aquabid. How many vt are in stores right now? So no, by my logic they are rarer. And regardless of the fact that vts are in lasses and whatever, this person is breeding their fish so that the majority will go back to pet stores. The more fish on the shelves, the more fish that die. Easy.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:38 PM   #26 
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To that point, I do agree. You should make sure you are starting from good stock, and unfortunately petstore VTs are bred the worst with mixed coloring and just plain weird genetics. I just think you take this too far, breeding VTs is not all bad, it depends on the stock you start from. Quite honestly, if I could get any fish from aquabid right now, it would be a VT male I saw the other day.


To the original poster, breeding should be something everyone who is willing to dedicate the time and money should get to enjoy (and better to try with fish then, say, a dog...). However, that dedication needs to go all the way through. You said you were keeping several, how about giving the rest to friends or family? Advertising around your neighborhood, or on craigslist? Make sure the fish get the best home you can give them, and if you cannot commit to that, then yes, perhaps re-thinking breeding would be a wise idea.

I am not from USA, I am from Serbia. We don't have Craigslist here nor is anyone willing to buy a fish of the web from me, especially since there already is such a service here, in Serbia.

Here, bettas are kept in excellent conditions. There is no reason to assume that all pet stores are neglecting their betta fish. Here, in every store, bettas are kept in individual tanks (10 gallon at least), planted, cycled, with snails and other fish suitable to be kept with a betta. Really, I have never seen a betta being kept badly at pet stores here. Here are some pictures I took when I was at the store:

Sorrority:



And males are kept in individual tanks:





So there you go. I plan to breed my beautiful veilteils, keep a few I like and give the rest to shops like these. You can rant about over populating low quality bettas, but you have no part in their existence.

All the commotion was caused because of ignorance, once again, as always on forums...

Last edited by soady; 02-27-2013 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:40 PM   #27 
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Originally Posted by MattsBettas View Post
Myrates, go in and count the number of vt fish to all others. As of now, there are 446 hm and 418 hmpk on aquabid. How many vt are in stores right now? So no, by my logic they are rarer. And regardless of the fact that vts are in lasses and whatever, this person is breeding their fish so that the majority will go back to pet stores. The more fish on the shelves, the more fish that die. Easy.
You must feel really silly now that you see my post.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:42 PM   #28 
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Originally Posted by MattsBettas View Post
Myrates, go in and count the number of vt fish to all others. As of now, there are 446 hm and 418 hmpk on aquabid. How many vt are in stores right now? So no, by my logic they are rarer. And regardless of the fact that vts are in lasses and whatever, this person is breeding their fish so that the majority will go back to pet stores. The more fish on the shelves, the more fish that die. Easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myates View Post
They are not rarer online either - in fact you will find more HMs and HMPKs online than you will find VTs.. which makes the VTs more rarer if we go by your logic. :)
You don't see them much online because people willing to spend the money to ship want something a bit more flashier.. they have this mentality that VTs are lesser of a fish.
You do realize most chain stores now carry more HMs, PKs, CT and the varieties of those than they carry VTs... they have VTs, mom and pop stores have VTs.. but the other fins are there just as much and in many places, more than VTs are.

You do realize most of the bettas purchased in the world are purchased in stores rather than online? Only people serious into the hobby/breeding purchase theirs online and spend that much money. But 99% of betta owners got theirs from the store..
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:44 PM   #29 
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Originally Posted by MattsBettas View Post
I own and breed petstore fish but-

1)They are not veiltails.
2)They are what I would consider "gems"
3)They are from pet stores that I trust, not mega companies
4)They are deform free and healthy

There is nothing inherently wrong with pet store fish. Ask Sena. But it seems as though this person just walked into a pet store and grabbed the first two fish they saw.
I didn't grab the first, I picked the prettiest one. I picked my "gems".
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:15 AM   #30 
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Also, in response to your original question, I found these two articles again which may be helpful. The whole site, in fact, is great for information about breeding.

http://www.bettysplendens.com/articl...?articleid=809
http://www.bettysplendens.com/articl...?articleid=839
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