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Old 03-01-2013, 05:02 PM   #51 
PaulO
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Man it is gonna be depressing reading the post in the disease and emergency area about the fry, parent's , and probably the tetras when they "mysteriously" start dying. I hope to god you change your mind and hopefully you'll either abandon this plan or at least take the things said here to heart. Honestly I wish you and your fish the best but unfortunately this is not looking like it will have a favorable outcome for you. If you can't be convinced not to breed can you wait?

Put off this plan to breed for a month and start a new thread, I am sure everyone is more than willing to give you more than adequate advice. Everybody here and even more breeders will walk you through the RIGHT way to set up these tanks, how you should condition the fish, and any questions you might have. You might think we are being a**holes but we really are not we are trying with our whole utmost effort to help you. At least a few of these breeders have gone through having all/most of their fry die at least once and it is depressing. There are few worse things to happen while breeding and raising fish than having to pick out dead fry from the bottom of the tank and bury in a garden are wherever.

At the least wait 1 month and during that month like I said start a thread and do EXTENSIVE research, if you do it correctly you'll realize how in the wrong you are. I leave this to your consideration, please do what is right.

-Paul

Last edited by PaulO; 03-01-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:32 PM   #52 
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PaulO said it right there. We are all here to help, not offend you even if it feels that way. The thing is, it is hard to help when you refuse to accept what we are saying. In my honest opinion, you need to change your set up and do a lot more research. Research until you think you have done enough, then do twice as much more!
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:41 PM   #53 
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Originally Posted by logisticsguy View Post
Myates, Louisville Lady, Indjo and others have all given terrific advise in this thread. I have nothing to add other than these folk are very experienced and any new breeder should heed these wise words.
If I was breeding I'd definitely be seeking the advice of these people mentioned.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:10 PM   #54 
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It's not like it is completely wrong.. there are actual ways to breed the way he wants. It's just some of the actions are what will kill fish.. trying to get some eggs from a nest and place them with the female, all those neons in a 1g bowl, etc.

So there is a way to successfully breed with what he wants to breed with, but just needs to be tweaked. More than happy to help tweak his ideas to make it successful, but with the defenses up and being stubborn (:P), it will be hard.

I'm a red head. I'm a mother of an autistic 8yr old. I can deal with stubborn :P So.. please.. if you want to breed with what you have then we can help you do that. But the ideas you have and things you want to try.. we know they will cause deaths. If we weren't so positive then we wouldn't be stubborn either. :)
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Old 03-02-2013, 06:54 AM   #55 
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It's not like it is completely wrong.. there are actual ways to breed the way he wants. It's just some of the actions are what will kill fish.. trying to get some eggs from a nest and place them with the female, all those neons in a 1g bowl, etc.

So there is a way to successfully breed with what he wants to breed with, but just needs to be tweaked. More than happy to help tweak his ideas to make it successful, but with the defenses up and being stubborn (:P), it will be hard.

I'm a red head. I'm a mother of an autistic 8yr old. I can deal with stubborn :P So.. please.. if you want to breed with what you have then we can help you do that. But the ideas you have and things you want to try.. we know they will cause deaths. If we weren't so positive then we wouldn't be stubborn either. :)

I would love it if you tweaked my plan, instead of telling me that what I am doing is wrong all the time. When did you people stop being nice?

I won't try to move the fry, point taken. The female will be kept in a jar or a bowl inside the container, much like what this breeder is doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvzVPd29DoU

I know he swears a lot and stuff, but he gives good advice.

Notice that he says he leaves them to see each other 24/7. He obviously has success like this, so I'm thinking of doing something similar to what he is doing.

Any suggestions?

And thanks a lot for still trying to help me out!
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:00 AM   #56 
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Actually, he is looked down a lot by breeders.. he has his own way, but he makes it sound as if it is the best/right way. The 24/7 isn't 24/7, what he is doing is introducing the pair together and he keeps them in like that for roughly 24hrs before releasing. It's what majority of the breeders do :) Take his videos with a grain of salt.

I have mentioned what needs to be done. I will point out the faults and have told you how to correct. I also point out the faults so you know which ones to research more on :)

But here nor there..

Conditioning is separate from the breeding tank. They tend to do better in their own containers, whether it be half a gallon or a gallon - either way the containers should be heated to about 76-78 (leaving the warm water in the tank, as the introduction to warm water can increase readiness to spawn).

Don't let them see each other but for 10-20 minutes once a day. I have tried both ways during conditioning (separating and allowing them to see each other 24/7) - in my experience females egged up quicker and became more ready when they did not see each other during the conditioning but for the short time. If they see each other 24/7 then nothing is new and exciting.. they get bored of one another. But if they are away from all other bettas for majority of the day, when they do see another they get excited.
Feed lots of live/frozen foods - my males will eat 3+x a day, females 4+x a day. Live/frozen worms and such tend to kick in the instinct to egg up, match it with seeing a male off and on and she will be ready in a short time.

Once the female is huge with eggs (not food - if she is huge prior to a feeding then you can assume she is eggy, but if by the time it's feeding time and she isn't that rounded, then she isn't ready).. once she is eggy you can put them both into the breeding tank.

Breeding tank - 5-10gs (keep in mind the bigger it is the more space the fry has and the longer time they can stay in it, as moving a fry in the first 4 weeks can be very dangerous). No filter - place a sponge filter inside the breeding tank but don't turn it on (turn it on shortly after free swimming, but on very low).
Lower the water level to about 3-5 inches to help the male care for the nest easier.. as he won't be sleeping nor eating for days on end and will be continuously going up and down (why conditioning him is very important). So having a short water level will help him pick up fry/eggs a bit easier.
Bare bottom - so the male can pick up eggs/fry easier, and make cleaning a bit easier on you.
Live plants, IAL, temp set to 82-84F (I personally like 84), nest anchor (IAL leaf, Oak leaf, piece of bubble wrap, half a styrofoam cup).

Now, depending on how ready the female is you can introduce in a couple ways -

If she is very ready then you can place them both in the tank at the same time with no barrier.. observe to make sure they start to flirt quickly.

Place her in the glass chimney, him in the tank and observe them.. if she starts to become submissive shortly after introduction then just give it a few hours and then let her loose.. observe behavior.

Place her in the glass chimney, him in the tank and observe.. after about 24hrs you can release her.. observe behavior.

What you are looking for in behavior is her being submissive (head waay down and bars on her side), him trying to lead her to the nest, her wanting to follow him, etc. If you see them both posturing, both flaring, etc then they are not ready..

They may get really rough.. so make sure to have salts/medication on hand just in case. Once spawning is over (can take a few hours for the actual spawning process), you will see the female as far from the nest as possible.. she may be clenched up and colorless.. she is trying to recoup without getting the attention of the male. Her job is done. You remove her (can place her in the 1g you have with a heater) and get her healed up.. once she is healed up you can place her into the other 10g (or the 8g) tank you had set up for the neons (can't get around buying a 10g tank for them.. they CAN'T live in the 4g you had them in previously, nor the 1g). So after she is better she can go live with them and be happy.. she will not recognize any eggs as being hers, and will eat any she comes across as she will be wanting to replenish her energy from breeding and nothing looks better than protein filled eggs to her at that time.

Leave the male be with the nest.. don't disturb him.. especially new fathers can get a bit antsy if he feels the nest is in danger. So you just leave him be..
Keep an eye on him, and especially after the fry are hatched.. he may eat them all, may not - new fathers are iffy when it comes to eating eggs/fry on their first time, as they are still learning the ropes. Instincts tend to kick in, but you never know.

Leave the male in for as long as you feel the fry are safe. Can offer him food once they are free swimming.. he will decide whether or not he wants to eat. Remove any uneaten food immediately after attempting.

Once the egg sacs are gone from the fry you are going to want to start feeding them - best way to go about it is with micro cultures or BBS (infusoria is good too, but they only eat that for a very short time). You will want to feed at least 3x a day.. siphon the water at least 2x a day with an airline tube.. even then you can suck up the babies, so be careful.. make sure to siphon off the bottom to remove uneaten/dead food.

To add new water in (since the water level is low and they start producing stunting hormones) you will want to drip it in - generally with some rigged drip system. I have shelves above my breeding tanks with multiple glass 1g jugs set up with conditioned water + IAL, heated.. I use an airline tubing and a control valve to adjust the amount of drips - I started out with 1 drip per 10-20 seconds and at around 3 weeks I up it to about 1 drip per 2-5 seconds. Sometimes I will have 2 going into a single tank with no side effects - they have taken the new water with ease.
It's slow going.. but you can't just pour fresh water into the tank as you won't have the exact same chemistry.. so this way they can adjust with no risk.

Depending upon what size spawning tank they are in, will determine when you move them to grow out tank.. but average you move them when they are around 5mm, or 4-5 weeks, maybe later if the spawn isn't that big and you keep up on the water changes.

The 15-20g will be fine for a pretty small spawn, but a couple of them would be better as you don't know what you will have. Make sure to keep it heated, give them light and find a way to trap humidity in (their labyrinth organs start to develop at around the 7th week) without suffocating them. Why I just stick with tanks and glass canopies.. much less of a headache for me.

Jar when the males start to become aggressive.. try to get the clear tubs so you can have some chance at seeing this happen. Some will get aggressive younger, some older.. best they stay in the grow outs for as long as possible, but it's a fish by fish case. You don't want to keep them in there once they start fighting for obvious reasons..

Phew.. okay.. just a tiny portion of the basics there..

Last edited by Myates; 03-02-2013 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:19 AM   #57 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myates View Post
Actually, he is looked down a lot by breeders.. he has his own way, but he makes it sound as if it is the best/right way. The 24/7 isn't 24/7, what he is doing is introducing the pair together and he keeps them in like that for roughly 24hrs before releasing. It's what majority of the breeders do :) Take his videos with a grain of salt.

I have mentioned what needs to be done. I will point out the faults and have told you how to correct. I also point out the faults so you know which ones to research more on :)

But here nor there..

Conditioning is separate from the breeding tank. They tend to do better in their own containers, whether it be half a gallon or a gallon - either way the containers should be heated to about 76-78 (leaving the warm water in the tank, as the introduction to warm water can increase readiness to spawn).

Don't let them see each other but for 10-20 minutes once a day. I have tried both ways during conditioning (separating and allowing them to see each other 24/7) - in my experience females egged up quicker and became more ready when they did not see each other during the conditioning but for the short time. If they see each other 24/7 then nothing is new and exciting.. they get bored of one another. But if they are away from all other bettas for majority of the day, when they do see another they get excited.
Feed lots of live/frozen foods - my males will eat 3+x a day, females 4+x a day. Live/frozen worms and such tend to kick in the instinct to egg up, match it with seeing a male off and on and she will be ready in a short time.

Once the female is huge with eggs (not food - if she is huge prior to a feeding then you can assume she is eggy, but if by the time it's feeding time and she isn't that rounded, then she isn't ready).. once she is eggy you can put them both into the breeding tank.

Breeding tank - 5-10gs (keep in mind the bigger it is the more space the fry has and the longer time they can stay in it, as moving a fry in the first 4 weeks can be very dangerous). No filter - place a sponge filter inside the breeding tank but don't turn it on (turn it on shortly after free swimming, but on very low).
Lower the water level to about 3-5 inches to help the male care for the nest easier.. as he won't be sleeping nor eating for days on end and will be continuously going up and down (why conditioning him is very important). So having a short water level will help him pick up fry/eggs a bit easier.
Bare bottom - so the male can pick up eggs/fry easier, and make cleaning a bit easier on you.
Live plants, IAL, temp set to 82-84F (I personally like 84), nest anchor (IAL leaf, Oak leaf, piece of bubble wrap, half a styrofoam cup).

Now, depending on how ready the female is you can introduce in a couple ways -

If she is very ready then you can place them both in the tank at the same time with no barrier.. observe to make sure they start to flirt quickly.

Place her in the glass chimney, him in the tank and observe them.. if she starts to become submissive shortly after introduction then just give it a few hours and then let her loose.. observe behavior.

Place her in the glass chimney, him in the tank and observe.. after about 24hrs you can release her.. observe behavior.

What you are looking for in behavior is her being submissive (head waay down and bars on her side), him trying to lead her to the nest, her wanting to follow him, etc. If you see them both posturing, both flaring, etc then they are not ready..

They may get really rough.. so make sure to have salts/medication on hand just in case. Once spawning is over (can take a few hours for the actual spawning process), you will see the female as far from the nest as possible.. she may be clenched up and colorless.. she is trying to recoup without getting the attention of the male. Her job is done. You remove her (can place her in the 1g you have with a heater) and get her healed up.. once she is healed up you can place her into the other 10g (or the 8g) tank you had set up for the neons (can't get around buying a 10g tank for them.. they CAN'T live in the 4g you had them in previously, nor the 1g). So after she is better she can go live with them and be happy.. she will not recognize any eggs as being hers, and will eat any she comes across as she will be wanting to replenish her energy from breeding and nothing looks better than protein filled eggs to her at that time.

Leave the male be with the nest.. don't disturb him.. especially new fathers can get a bit antsy if he feels the nest is in danger. So you just leave him be..
Keep an eye on him, and especially after the fry are hatched.. he may eat them all, may not - new fathers are iffy when it comes to eating eggs/fry on their first time, as they are still learning the ropes. Instincts tend to kick in, but you never know.

Leave the male in for as long as you feel the fry are safe. Can offer him food once they are free swimming.. he will decide whether or not he wants to eat. Remove any uneaten food immediately after attempting.

Once the egg sacs are gone from the fry you are going to want to start feeding them - best way to go about it is with micro cultures or BBS (infusoria is good too, but they only eat that for a very short time). You will want to feed at least 3x a day.. siphon the water at least 2x a day with an airline tube.. even then you can suck up the babies, so be careful.. make sure to siphon off the bottom to remove uneaten/dead food.

To add new water in (since the water level is low and they start producing stunting hormones) you will want to drip it in - generally with some rigged drip system. I have shelves above my breeding tanks with multiple glass 1g jugs set up with conditioned water + IAL, heated.. I use an airline tubing and a control valve to adjust the amount of drips - I started out with 1 drip per 10-20 seconds and at around 3 weeks I up it to about 1 drip per 2-5 seconds. Sometimes I will have 2 going into a single tank with no side effects - they have taken the new water with ease.
It's slow going.. but you can't just pour fresh water into the tank as you won't have the exact same chemistry.. so this way they can adjust with no risk.

Depending upon what size spawning tank they are in, will determine when you move them to grow out tank.. but average you move them when they are around 5mm, or 4-5 weeks, maybe later if the spawn isn't that big and you keep up on the water changes.

The 15-20g will be fine for a pretty small spawn, but a couple of them would be better as you don't know what you will have. Make sure to keep it heated, give them light and find a way to trap humidity in (their labyrinth organs start to develop at around the 7th week) without suffocating them. Why I just stick with tanks and glass canopies.. much less of a headache for me.

Jar when the males start to become aggressive.. try to get the clear tubs so you can have some chance at seeing this happen. Some will get aggressive younger, some older.. best they stay in the grow outs for as long as possible, but it's a fish by fish case. You don't want to keep them in there once they start fighting for obvious reasons..

Phew.. okay.. just a tiny portion of the basics there..

That was great, I really appreciate it! You kept my attention. I really have read a lot of breeding advice, but it was never so nicely connected to me and my setup. :)

I bought frozen food today. I bought bloodworms, daphnia, red mosquito larvae and artemia. I will buy the plastic container I was talking about (round) and start conditioning them properly with letting them see each other for 20 minutes a day. I will do so for around 2-3 weeks, or until you guys think they are ready, since I will post pictures of them and write about their behavior.

Thanks a bunch!

Last edited by soady; 03-02-2013 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:26 AM   #58 
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It can take anywhere from 5-14 days for conditioning.. you are going to base it mainly off of the female and when she is ready. I would say at minimum 5-7 days just so they get their energy and nutrition up.

Definitely (if you haven't already) check out the stickies on top of this section and use it as a check list of sorts. There are tons of other little things that come in handy (such as turkey basters) that may not be listed.

How you breed can vary from breeder to breeder.. everyone has their own methods that work best for what they have and want. As long as the basics are followed in the care of the fish.. so you breeding and growing in tubs is fine and many people do it. Being new it may pose a little more challenge (as to being able to view for deformities, aggression, etc) that experienced people know what to look for - but it's definitely not impossible.

I have no qualms with the fish you are wanting to breed, nor how - just when you had the neons in the tank, messing with the nest, etc.. those were my concerns. But you trying to go as easy/cheap.. nothing wrong with that. I do wish you the best of luck and I will answer any questions you have - I just let my worry of their health/safety be my focus for a bit there.

Breeding info

Breeding questions
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:30 AM   #59 
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Originally Posted by Myates View Post
It can take anywhere from 5-14 days for conditioning.. you are going to base it mainly off of the female and when she is ready. I would say at minimum 5-7 days just so they get their energy and nutrition up.

Definitely (if you haven't already) check out the stickies on top of this section and use it as a check list of sorts. There are tons of other little things that come in handy (such as turkey basters) that may not be listed.

How you breed can vary from breeder to breeder.. everyone has their own methods that work best for what they have and want. As long as the basics are followed in the care of the fish.. so you breeding and growing in tubs is fine and many people do it. Being new it may pose a little more challenge (as to being able to view for deformities, aggression, etc) that experienced people know what to look for - but it's definitely not impossible.

I have no qualms with the fish you are wanting to breed, nor how - just when you had the neons in the tank, messing with the nest, etc.. those were my concerns. But you trying to go as easy/cheap.. nothing wrong with that. I do wish you the best of luck and I will answer any questions you have - I just let my worry of their health/safety be my focus for a bit there.

Breeding info

Breeding questions

I looked through all the stickies, and will go through all of them a few more times. Here is the food that I bought:



As, I said earlier, I will count on your help throughout the whole process!

Thank you.
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