Betta Fish Care  
Go Back   Betta Fish and Betta Fish Care > Betta Fish Bowls, Habitats, and Accessories
Check out the eBook Betta Fish Care Made Easy
betta fish
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-21-2014, 06:22 PM   #11 
mart
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1RainbowBetta View Post
I'm paying 88 cents a gallon for mine, which doesn't sound all that bad but when you're trying to cycle 2 tanks and changing half the water about every 3 days it adds up, especially when the tanks are taking so long to cycle.

Did you have ammonia in your well water? The main problems with mine seem to be the ammonia and the hardness with high PH. I didn't see ammonia mentioned on the list of things the PUR filter is supposed to remove. http://www.purwater.com/water/why-pu...aucet-filters/ Not that it wouldn't be a good thing to have the filter because we may have some of the other junk in our well water, which we drink, that may not be so good for us. I'm just not certain the filter would solve the ammonia problem.

Hubby not sure how deep our well is. He knows the pump is about 200 feet down because we had to have a new one put in a couple years ago. Assume the container is below that but not sure how far down.



Thanks. If I get PUR I'll check into that.




I mixed up a cup of water with 1/8 well water and 7/8 of the "drinking water." Will let it sit and do tests tomorrow and report back.
I don't remember if I checked the water without the filter, but there is no ammonia with the filter, and my GH and KH are just right.
I did notice my phosphate was up a little bit out of the filter, but when it's in the tank, it's at 0ppm. So maybe that goes away sitting with the heater in it waiting to go into the tank.

Heck it wouldn't hurt to get one, especially for you too. I won't drink the water without being filtered, so the same goes for my fish.

Do your test, and let me know what you find.
mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 08:28 AM   #12 
rpadgett37
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Quote:
I was looking around for more info on this. Found this: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/b...rbonate-39665/ but I feel like I'm getting into advanced stuff here while I'm still a newbie at fishkeeping. Opinions seem a bit divided on using baking soda. Some say the effect is not permanent and the PH goes back down in a day or two. I saw some recommendations for crushed coral, but does that just increase the GH or would it also have an effect on the KH and PH? I just don't want to end up killing my little betta by messing with the water when I don't know what I'm doing.
I understand your reluctance, and that is getting into advanced topics; however, it isn't as daunting as it may seem. Think of it like a recipe... a little of this, a dash of that, and WHALAH! You are set.

Having said that, I also read about the baking soda not holding. In truth, I only suggested it as it is the most recommended solution by the most people and it is dirt cheap. I don't use it myself, so I can't speak to how long the effect lasts or if it can remain stable when replenishing during regular water changes. I can say that many people do use this method successfully.

I use products that are designed to raise the KH and hold, stabilizing the PH at a given value. Many don't believe in using this type of product; however, they work for me nicely. I never recommend them due to the added expense which most people on a budget would find out of reach.

As for crushed coral and GH, there is no direct relationship between KH / PH other than a slight buffering of the PH (meaning stabilizing it a little to prevent large swings). Can this be overdone? I wouldn't be concerned about that with crushed coral. It is perfectly safe for you Betta.

Now again, I don't use coral, but rather products that are designed to re-mineralize RO water or raise the GH in my tap water. They are safe, effective and reliable and reasonably cheap.

Having said all of that, I took a look see at the previous posts, and though the KH is a bit high, the GH is fine for a Betta being at only 12 dK, though at the upper end of his tolerance. It also sounds like mixing water From the well and drinking water may prove more effective. The initial mix turned out some pretty good numbers, but the ammonia in the water is not a good thing and would be tough, though not impossible, to manage over time. It may play only a minor influence as with partial water changes, a smaller amount will be introduced into the aquarium. But being there in that concentration right off the bat is toxic for fish.

With letting the water sit, does the ammonia level drop? Also, running an airstone in the water will any gasses dissipate from the water.

Does that help?
rpadgett37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 12:32 PM   #13 
1RainbowBetta
Member
 
1RainbowBetta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpadgett37 View Post
I understand your reluctance, and that is getting into advanced topics; however, it isn't as daunting as it may seem. Think of it like a recipe... a little of this, a dash of that, and WHALAH! You are set.

.................
With letting the water sit, does the ammonia level drop? Also, running an airstone in the water will any gasses dissipate from the water.

Does that help?
Yeah it IS similar to a recipe, I just need someone to help me figure out which ingredients and how much to mix to get it right.

Do you mean when I let the bottled water and well water mix sit did the ammonia drop? Actually after 3 days it rose to 2.0. I didn't go longer than that. Do you think it would have gone back down if I had waited longer?

I found some very indepth info. Unfortunately I'm not a chemist so a lot of it is practically incomprehensible to me. Maybe one of you more advanced aquarists can "translate" the pertinent parts?

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com...tml#correct_ro
Even has a section on "Use of RO, DI (Distilled) water in Aquariums or Betta Tanks;"


http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/aquariumkh.html


Also has anyone tried Seachem's Equilibrium or Replenish? I was wondering if one of these would help.
1RainbowBetta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 02:00 PM   #14 
rpadgett37
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1RainbowBetta View Post
Yeah it IS similar to a recipe, I just need someone to help me figure out which ingredients and how much to mix to get it right.

Do you mean when I let the bottled water and well water mix sit did the ammonia drop? Actually after 3 days it rose to 2.0. I didn't go longer than that. Do you think it would have gone back down if I had waited longer?

I found some very indepth info. Unfortunately I'm not a chemist so a lot of it is practically incomprehensible to me. Maybe one of you more advanced aquarists can "translate" the pertinent parts?

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com...tml#correct_ro
Even has a section on "Use of RO, DI (Distilled) water in Aquariums or Betta Tanks;"


http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/aquariumkh.html


Also has anyone tried Seachem's Equilibrium or Replenish? I was wondering if one of these would help.
Aaargh. Sorry. One track mind and that went right past me. No, I don't think the ammonia would go away on its own. It would need to be processed by the BB in your aquarium.

As for these articles, I am not sure why the extreme warning against use of RO water for anything other than blending was needed. It's a bit simpler than he explained.

I am not certain how much you know about KH, GH and PH so I may end up repeating some things you are aware of. But I am going to keep it really simple.

PH is a measurement of whether or not water is acidic or alkaline, as well as how acidic or alkaline it is on the PH scale.

KH is a measure of the carbonated hardness of your water. What we are talking about here is calcium carbonate. It functions as a buffer to the PH preventing it from swinging wildly in response to changing conditions in the aquarium. The high the KH, the more stable the PH.

GH is simply a measurement of trace minerals in the water. Calcium and magnesium are by far the most prominent of these minerals, and when we test the water, the results reflect the concentration of these elements in the water. There are other trace minerals there, but in really tiny ammounts.

With RO water, you have neither carbonates nor minerals of any kind in the water, reflected in the KH and GH measurements producing a result of 0 each. The PH reflects the water as being alkaline nor acidic and should measure a PH of 7.

Ok, this is the mixing bowl. The ingredients for the recipe are to put the carbonates and the minerals back into the water, which just means setting KH, which in turn will set the PH, and the GH. It really is a take a little of this, a dash of that and presto! you have a cake.

For products, I am not as familiar with Seachem Replenish, but I do use Equilibrium. It works great. Use as directed and it sets the GH where you want it to be. Though it wont hurt the Betta, it is formulated for plants. Replenish is formulated for fish so may be a better choice for you. In the end, they both do the same thing and you won't go wrong using either one.

For the KH, Seachem makes another product called Alkaline Buffer. I have used this with success in my tap and RO water. It will want to set the PH at between 7.2 and 7.8 depending on how much you use, but 7.2 is well within the range of what a Betta can tolerate. It works the same as the others above. Add the directed amount daily till the desired PH is reached. Seachem makes other products for the KH, some I am testing now, and there are other, more pricey products that do it as well.

So to summarize, here is what it looks like for me. My tap starts at PH 7.9, KH 1dk (20ppm), GH 1-2 dH (20-40ppm).

I add 1/4 and another 1/8 tsp of the alkaline buffer
I add 1 cup water with 1/4 tsp of equilibrium.

The result is a PH of 7.2, a dK of 3-4 (70-80ppm), and a GH of 4.5 (90-100ppm). I am willing to bet these same amounts in RO water will produce the same numbers.You see what I mean by a recipe? Knowing what needs to go into the water, then finding the product that will do it accurately every time, is all it takes. Simplifies what seems really complex.
rpadgett37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 02:03 PM   #15 
mart
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1RainbowBetta View Post
Yeah it IS similar to a recipe, I just need someone to help me figure out which ingredients and how much to mix to get it right.

Do you mean when I let the bottled water and well water mix sit did the ammonia drop? Actually after 3 days it rose to 2.0. I didn't go longer than that. Do you think it would have gone back down if I had waited longer?

I found some very indepth info. Unfortunately I'm not a chemist so a lot of it is practically incomprehensible to me. Maybe one of you more advanced aquarists can "translate" the pertinent parts?

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com...tml#correct_ro
Even has a section on "Use of RO, DI (Distilled) water in Aquariums or Betta Tanks;"


http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/aquariumkh.html


Also has anyone tried Seachem's Equilibrium or Replenish? I was wondering if one of these would help.
Yeah you shouldn't use RO water for a betta.
I don't use Seachem produdcts.
Yes I did mean let it sit overnight. Only other thing I can think of is trying the PUR water filter.
mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 04:13 PM   #16 
rpadgett37
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
RO water that has been re-constituted is fine for a Betta. Plain, unmodified RO water is not such a good idea.
rpadgett37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 06:59 PM   #17 
1RainbowBetta
Member
 
1RainbowBetta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Here are today's test results:

Mix of 1/8 cup well water + 7/8 cup "drinking water" (RO water?) after sitting 24 hours: ammonia 0.5, KH 53.7 ppm. I didn't test everything as I was mainly trying to see if the ammonia would be lower and where the KH/GH would be. Previous tests with higher concentration of well water had 0 for both nitrites and nitrates. I was a little surprised the ammonia wasn't lower, since I got the same reading for 1/4 cup well water + 3/4 cup "drinking water."

The water I took from where I work was no better than my well water. Ammonia 0.5, and KH I stopped at 14 drops as it was already off the chart.
So no help there.

I did find a post on another forum where someone had ammonia in tap water and said getting a PUR filter lowered it from 2 ppm to 0.25 ppm. It was thought that the BB could handle that amount especially if Prime was used to protect the fish until the BB processed the ammonia.

So whatcha think? I think the possibilities are 1) getting a PUR filter and using a combination of well water and "drinking water," or 2) continue using all "drinking water" but get some Seachem Replenish and Alkaline Buffer. What would be best for my betta and best to get a cycle established? Would well water have the minerals my betta needs or would it still be better to get some Replenish?

Thank you very much, rpadgett37, for your explanation. It was very understandable and helpful. :)
I appreciate everyone's input on this and I feel like we're zeroing in on a solution.
1RainbowBetta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 10:22 PM   #18 
1RainbowBetta
Member
 
1RainbowBetta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Looked at Seachem's site and here's what it says about Replenish: "Replenish™ is a proprietary blend of salts designed to replenish physiologically relevant minerals that are removed by reverse osmosis or deionizing filtration. Replenish™ restores General Hardness (GH) using a balanced blend of both “soft” (sodium, potassium) and “hard” (calcium, magnesium) salts. " Ingredients are listed as: calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, sodium chloride, potassium chloride

I didn't see anything about using the alkaline buffer with it, but would I need to use this along with Replenish to raise the KH? I saw something about needing to use both an alkaline and acid buffer together to get a stable pH. Is this necessary?

If I use Replenish and alkaline buffer would I not use crushed coral? Or would that still be helpful?

Last edited by 1RainbowBetta; 04-22-2014 at 10:30 PM.
1RainbowBetta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2014, 08:54 AM   #19 
rpadgett37
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1RainbowBetta View Post
Looked at Seachem's site and here's what it says about Replenish: "Replenish™ is a proprietary blend of salts designed to replenish physiologically relevant minerals that are removed by reverse osmosis or deionizing filtration. Replenish™ restores General Hardness (GH) using a balanced blend of both “soft” (sodium, potassium) and “hard” (calcium, magnesium) salts. " Ingredients are listed as: calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, sodium chloride, potassium chloride

I didn't see anything about using the alkaline buffer with it, but would I need to use this along with Replenish to raise the KH? I saw something about needing to use both an alkaline and acid buffer together to get a stable pH. Is this necessary?

If I use Replenish and alkaline buffer would I not use crushed coral? Or would that still be helpful?
First thing about your bb. Nitrifying Bacteria will grow to the amount of ammonia you have in the water. They will function equally well with 0.25 or 2ppm in your water. The thing to know here is if they exist in sufficient numbers to process .25ppm ammonia and that level climbs to 2.0 ppm, given a little time, the nitrifying bacteria will grow to the point where they can consume the entire 2ppm within 24 hours. In other words, ammonia in the water doesn't harm the nitrifying bacteria.

For the products, if you use Stability, you will not need to use crushed coral. Used as directed, it will establish the GH levels that you want without needing to use anything else. It won't hurt to use crushed coral with it but it isn't needed.

You would still need to use something to raise the KH. For the Alkaline and Acid buffers, you would only need to use both if you were trying to target a specific PH value. The vast majority of people only need a PH that is close enough, which is perfectly OK. The Alkaline buffer will work just fine on its own and will buffer the PH at a given value between 7.2 and 7.8. For your Betta, 7.2 is perfectly fine.
rpadgett37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2014, 09:55 AM   #20 
1RainbowBetta
Member
 
1RainbowBetta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpadgett37 View Post
First thing about your bb. Nitrifying Bacteria will grow to the amount of ammonia you have in the water. They will function equally well with 0.25 or 2ppm in your water. The thing to know here is if they exist in sufficient numbers to process .25ppm ammonia and that level climbs to 2.0 ppm, given a little time, the nitrifying bacteria will grow to the point where they can consume the entire 2ppm within 24 hours. In other words, ammonia in the water doesn't harm the nitrifying bacteria.

For the products, if you use Stability, you will not need to use crushed coral. Used as directed, it will establish the GH levels that you want without needing to use anything else. It won't hurt to use crushed coral with it but it isn't needed.

You would still need to use something to raise the KH. For the Alkaline and Acid buffers, you would only need to use both if you were trying to target a specific PH value. The vast majority of people only need a PH that is close enough, which is perfectly OK. The Alkaline buffer will work just fine on its own and will buffer the PH at a given value between 7.2 and 7.8. For your Betta, 7.2 is perfectly fine.
Then if I did put in some well water to (presumably) add minerals and raise the GH/KH, if it had 0.5 ammonia in it, it wouldn't pose a problem if I had the BB in my tank? I was also planning to treat any added water with Prime (as I've been doing) to keep the ammonia from harming my betta until the BB can take care of it (that is once I get some BB growing). THe well water I would add would be less than the bottled water (1/8 to 1/4 well water with 7/8 to 3/4 bottled). Since there'd be not much well water added, I was thinking Replenish + alkaline buffer would still be good to add. Or would that be overdoing it? Does that sound right? Or have I missed the point?

Or would it be best to just use all bottled water with Replenish and alkaline buffer and forget the well water completely?

That 2nd paragraph where you say "if you use Stability..." did you mean Replenish? I was using Stability but it didn't seem to be having any effect and Hallyx said it didn't have the right bacteria anyway, so I quit using it a couple days ago. In that one article, the author doesn't advocate the use of crushed coral either.

Sorry if my questions seem repetitive. I just want to make sure I get it straight and do it right.
1RainbowBetta is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Betta-fix/mela-fix/pima-fix Stone Betta Chat 101 08-21-2013 11:29 AM
cloudy water fix?? roypattonphoto Betta Fish Care 5 03-22-2011 11:52 AM
recurring problem, need a fix! takumi Betta Fish Diseases and Emergencies 7 07-16-2010 03:04 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.