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Old 08-03-2010, 04:25 PM   #11 
frogipoi
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I just wanted opinions. Of course I see the difference (between petco and AB) and breeding petstore bettas isn't the best thing but like Adastra said...
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At the end of the day, bettas are pets. Let them just be pets.
And I do see a difference, Florida bettas, just messing with ya. Petstore cups are mean but my petsmart's cups are huger then others, the bettas are happy and clean and they dance so I didn't see a difference there... My petco is evil all the bettas had fin rot
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You say, you cant see the difference? Your telling me when you look on AB and then you go to petco you dont see a difference...
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Old 08-05-2010, 10:09 PM   #12 
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I seriously think there's nothing wrong with breeding pet store bettas. Fine, maybe you think there's something wrong. Look at the Thailand breeders. A good pair, yet with a fry that's not what they want. Too small, cull. Not what they want, cull. No space, cull.
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Old 08-06-2010, 01:00 AM   #13 
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Culling is a necessary part of breeding no matter what species you work with. Sure it sucks to euthanize healthy fish but with fish dieing in pet stores every day there is just no possible way to adopt unfavorable fish to homes.
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:02 AM   #14 
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I just feed them to my fish in my 55 and 75 galon, At least it's the cycle of life. But it has to be done.
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:13 PM   #15 
wallywestisthebest333
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I agree with many people on this thread.

I feel that breeding is the same no matter what animal you choose.

Neat OFL! I had no idea that the origins of the HM lie in a petstore spawn! =] That's a really cool fact. =]

But I think that unless you're willing to work hard at it for years (like the HM line creator probably had to) with isolating the gene and so forth and so on, and making possibly thousands of undesirable fish that need to be culled in the meantime; that it's just better to spend the extra cash on an AB betta with the traits you want to begin with. =]

I think petstore fish can be bred. They just need to be bred responsibly and proper culling/euthanasia needs to take place. =] This way you can ensure that your breed has a home and if you find one with a trait you really like you can save it for another spawn. =]

I also agree with Adastra about breeding in general. If you don't have the cash or the time, then wait till you do to start breeding so that you can be sure to give them the best life they can have.

After all in the end we're talking about giving life. =] Make sure you're prepared and ready to take the responsibility if something doesn't go as planned.

For you in particular FP I suggest trying to find a betta club in your area. =] You might find awesome breeding stock for low prices at an auction. =]
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:32 PM   #16 
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The halfmoon did not start from a pet store betta, Here is a link if you want to know the fact's, instead of peoples opinions. some people say they still dont no where the long fin betta come from some say it was a mutation, some say it was them adapting to there inviorment, but here is the link where the half moon come from..

http://www.bettysplendens.com/articl...articleid=1024
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:33 PM   #17 
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Originally Posted by FloridaBettas239 View Post
The halfmoon did not start from a pet store betta, Here is a link if you want to know the fact's, instead of peoples opinions. some people say they still dont no where the long fin betta come from some say it was a mutation, some say it was them adapting to there inviorment, but here is the link where the half moon come from..

http://www.bettysplendens.com/articl...articleid=1024
I'm not arguing in this post just to be clear. =] I really respect you and your posts FB because you're a knowledgeable member of the IBC and you're really helpful! =] I just wanted to post what I got out of that article. =]



From what I've read of that article the halfmoon's roots are heavily planted in petstore bettas.

"Delaval was already an accomplished Guppy breeder, and several years before had decided to try his hand at bettas. He started with pet store fare, working the quality up to spec by selectively breeding the finest fish from his spawning attempts in a very particular pattern: brother to sister, and then father to daughter, for several generations. A peculiar feature of Delaval's line was that many of them had a white edge to their fins, a trait still seen in many Halfmoon bettas today. As the quality of Delaval's bettas increased, he began to realize he was on to something special, and worked even harder to perfect his 'ideal'. Working with only four tanks and about twenty jars, Delaval bred hard and culled hard, keeping only the very best to continue the line. "

"In 1988 Delaval then exhibited his fish at a show in LeMann, France. Although his fish were again overlooked in the judging, at least one fellow breeder was thunderstruck by what Delaval had been able to accomplish: Rajiv Masillamoni. Masillamoni had a habit of carrying with him at all times a photograph of Mr. G, which he showed to everyone at every betta event he was able to attend, enthusing about the perfection of the form and asking where he might acquire a fish of it's caliber. Needless to say, when he first laid eyes on Delaval's entries, which were even better in spread and symmetry than what he had dared to dream, the photo of Mr. G slipped forgotten from his fingertips. He immediately began drilling Delaval about his fish, and was able to purchase two of the three 180 degree caudal males that Delaval had brought with him to the show, as well as five other males and two females from the same line. Masillamoni spirited his treasures back home to Switzerland, where he began breeding them with a passion. To his shock and horror he came to realize that every one of the seven males he had purchased from Delaval were unable to spawn properly.Although they would build a nest and court the female, they didn't seem able to perform the embrace and sire offspring. This didn't seem to be a fault of the form so much as a result of too much inbreeding, confirmed when Masillamoni consulted two other breeders who had acquired stock from Delaval -- Laurent Chenot and Marc Maurin -- who reported similar failures. Reduced to relying on the females alone, Masillamoni crossed them against pet store bettas, producing fish which were nowhere close to the quality of the original Delaval stock in either form or symmetry. When a stroke of bad luck killed one of the females, it seemed the entire venture would be doomed. However, Fortune was with Masillamoni and his project, and he was soon introduced to an American IBC member who happened to be visiting Switzerland and was able to give him a melano doubletail male from the Parris Jones line. Masillamoni bred the male to his one remaining Delaval female, and was rewarded with one fish that stood out from the rest. The fish was given the number 'R39', and was a green male with a perfect 180 degree caudal fin."

Desperate to continue the line, Masillamoni bred the fish with every female in his possession, and then teamed up with Laurent Chenot and breeder Jean Luc Corso, who bred him to their females as well. The offspring of these crosses formed the very foundation of the first true Halfmoon breeding line, and it can be reasonably stated that all Halfmoon fish today are descendants of this one male -- R39."

The exact roots may not lie in petstore stock; but I think they were quite heavily dependent upon Delaval's petstore stock's genes.

Because if not for Delaval's petstore stock's genes and his females that he gave away; Masillamoni wouldn't have had anything at all thus R-39 would not have come into existence.

Since the article states that all HMs are descendents of R-39, we wouldn't have any HMs if not for Delaval's original, selectively inbred petstore stock.

At least that's what the article makes it sound like.

The point I'm trying to make and that I bolded near the top is that you have to breed and cull hard. You have to keep only the best of your mutation in order to keep it alive if you're dealing with petstore stock as there are other more dominant genes at play there that could eclipse the one you want to keep.

Which is why Delaval inbred with his petstore stock so much. If he'd used fresh Petstore stock genes he would have erased his desired mutation. Since he had no access to other similar stock, he did what he had to.

I'm not arguing in this post just to be clear. =] I really respect you and your posts FB because you're a knowledgeable member of the IBC and you're really helpful! =] I just wanted to post what I got out of that article. =]

Thought I'd put that in here twice because you've helped me a lot recently. =] Thank you for that! =]

Also I could have read it wrong. again this is just my take on it. =]
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Old 08-07-2010, 10:34 AM   #18 
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I understand all that but when he bred and made his betta, where do you think they come from? Not a pet store, either the wild or other breeder that were breeding and keeping betta. He didn't go to a pet store and buy a betta, Yes the halfmoon came from the VT and what ever else he was breeding back then.
Back then there was no pet store stock there were lower class pesants that were catching, fighting and breeding bettas and there were breeder's but not a pet store gene. Yes all pet store bettas or hafmoons came from this but when, how, who was bred to what this is the problems you run into with pet store bettas. that and it takes years and years of improvments and washing out color to get a decent betta like you would find a bettysplendens.... When you buy from a good breeder you can trace the root's of your fish back to great grandparents and so on you get to see the recessive gene's that your not seeing in the fish your buying and finage and so on.. I no that nobody is arguing, I am never closed minded, like i know it all. I love to learn new stuff everyday, this makes me a better fish and betta keeper..
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Old 08-07-2010, 12:33 PM   #19 
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I agree that it takes years of breeding to get that perfect form and color. And yes it's easier to continue other breeder's line. But not everyone can afford a top quality fish. And if you know what you want and buy selectively, breeding pet store fish is fine. That is why I advise beginners to start with solid colors (it's easier to fix).

In the case of HM (I've only worked with HM's), the female is most important. She must be a super delta or a HM. Otherwise you will get many non HM. Asian breeders often cull over stock females so others can't produce that perfect form. They would sell the more rounded tail or the non symmetrical fin because these are considered as mutts (HM's are suppose to be symmetrical).

It is true that most pet store fish are "who cares what I produce" kind of fish. They don't select the 5000/week shipment. But I see many good quality pet store bettas in this forum which are (IMO) suitable for creating a line.

[quote= I am never closed minded, like i know it all. I love to learn new stuff everyday, this makes me a better fish and betta keeper..[/quote]

Me too, and I've learned a great deal from everyone in this forum. Thank you all.
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Old 08-07-2010, 05:49 PM   #20 
wallywestisthebest333
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Originally Posted by FloridaBettas239 View Post
I no that nobody is arguing, I am never closed minded, like i know it all. I love to learn new stuff everyday, this makes me a better fish and betta keeper..
I know! =] I would never call you closed minded! =] I just wanted to make sure that I didn't offend you or anyone else browsing the thread. =] If I hadn't included that there was a chance someone could have found it offensive even though that wasn't my intention. Thus the clarification statement at the beginning and end.

As I said in my post I agree that it would take ages to get anything successful out of petstore stock and you'd have to do a lot of culling but it can be done! =] It's just easier starting out with more pure lines. =]
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