Anyone experienced with breeding super blacks?

[indjo]

I haven't worked with much other than green and copper. Recently I've tried dragons and their color outcomes are confusing - even current copper result differently compared to their genetics 3 yrs ago.

From what I came up with, I conclude that the super black was produced in the attempt to create black dragons. Thus they mixed melano's with dragons and coppers - which carry some sort of red, metallic, and other genes

I disagree that blacks (whatever kind) need marble genes. In fact I believe the marble ruins the black in general and makes it colorless. IMO the marble and butterfly gene (or pheno or whatever) is used to create a unique color combo. I agree with MrV that super black may be copper based - I get a number of black .... melano like .... from my copper to copper and copper to yellow dragon - which means that they have been regularly crossed. ... also a lot of marbles mainly in the black ones (I don't know what this means).

Given that super blacks aren't true melano's (more of a melano-copper geno), thus the females shouldn't be infertile. So you can trust whoever selling super black females who claims that they're fertile..... but then again I'm not sure. One thing you can be sure of is that if the super black is a new color variation, you won't get too many of them in your fry unless, of course, you use 2 super black parents. You might get more in F2 or F3..... again not sure - waiting to do F2.

I must emphasize the fact that this is only my opinion and thus is NOT necessarily true - still trying to understand the genetic make up in general.

[MrVampire181]

Basicly black can be achieved by a lot of different genes....red, marble, iridescent, copper. I find black devils to have a more intense black color to them...and they have obviously inherited the agression from the red (the night I set up my import tank they were floating but the bags sank and the female go through and she had shredded fins and open bloody wounds by morning). IMO a breeder should choose one black to work with and avoid all other black crosses in that line.

[dramaqueen]

I'm sorry about your black female!

[MrVampire181]

Originally Posted by dramaqueen

I'm sorry about your black female!

She's fine now...I'm worried about the male now lol she's feisty.

[1fish2fish]

Originally Posted by MrVampire181

IMO a breeder should choose one black to work with and avoid all other black crosses in that line.

Agreed 100%.

Everyone knows that I'm not particularly fond of creating new colors. I think breeders should stick with the current colors and try to improve those colors and improve form and finnage instead of trying to always create the next best thing. I find this to be ESPECIALLY true for new breeders. We shouldn't be trying to create something new when we don't even have the knowledge base to do so effectively.

I'd much rather see breeders trying to bring back some of these colors that are in jeopardy, like irrid blues and non-irrid reds, cambodians, etc.

It's like I always say, color is always secondary to form. Breed for form first then color.

[beat2020]

1f2f- I completely agree with you. I think breeders should focus on form and finnage and then color. However, that being said, I have been thinking about working with a new strain. I was thinking either melanos (This thread inspired me lol) or like you said, one of those colors that are in jeopardy. With of course, show quality form and finnage.

[MrVampire181]

1fish2fish...I agree 100% with you! There's a lot of great things being produced by color breeders but there's quite a few colors that need to be worked on. Of course fins and form first...color last.

[Dragonlady]

Originally Posted by MrVampire181

... IMO a breeder should choose one black to work with and avoid all other black crosses in that line.

Although this thread is about breeding superblack, what about the classic melano?
We know that melano black bettas produce infertile melano females. How would you avoid a cross to another type of black? As we know, the old way was to cross a melano to a steel female carrying melano. Not that long ago, steel iridescence was changed from a minor to major fault in black bettas. What would you do? It seems that you are almost forced to cross to either doubleblack(with marble) or superblack(with metallic) if you don't want to be majorly faulted for color. It seems unavoidable. I totally agree that form and finnage is more important than color if you are breeding for show. Sadly, some very experienced
breeders will cull an entire spawn that has excellent color with very poor finnage. Perhaps it is secretly each betta breeder's fantasy to create their own unique hm line. Although it can take years or even a lifetime of work and research, that dream can become a reality. Why not?