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Critiques on my Double Tail please?

6K views 38 replies 15 participants last post by  ChibreneyDragon 
#1 ·
So I found this guy the other day and am really interested in breeding him. So I'd like your critiques please!
Sorry about the poor quality pics.

Thanks in advance!
 
#2 ·
is he from a chain pet store, local pet store or a breeder? if he's from a chain store, then right off the bat it's a no. pet store bettas have genetics like a flower-laden minefield: beautiful to look at, but dangerous stuff could be lurking underneath such as recessive deformities that he doesn't express but the babies could. if he's from a local, family owned pet store, there's a good chance they can put you in touch with his breeder, who can give you a rundown of his lineage, and better prepare you for the kind of fry he'll produce. if he's a direct breeder sale, then what i said just there goes as well.

personally i would NOT try to breed him. his topline is really lumpy (beyond a "flaw" to a "deformity" i'd say) and the leading edge of his dorsal tapers way too much. his tail is fairly symmetrical, but the upper lobe is noticeably smaller than the lower, resulting in what's called a "mitten tail." i personally think mitten tails are adorable, but unless you know fifty to two hundred people who'd love to have a red and blue mitten tailed betta, you're gonna have a hard time finding homes for his fry, since he, and most likely his offspring, will never be show/breeder quality bettas.
 
#5 ·
Homegrown terror... Pet store Bettas aren't much different than Thai imports in regards to genes most of the time. I remember hearing from breeders that there's no difference between seeing a nice fish on Aquabid and a nice fish in a petstore because you never know the genetics of each one most if the time..

Also.. I don't really like this fish, he's nice but not the quality I would go for
 
#13 ·
The fish is very faulty so what do you hope to accomplish by breeding? Making the breeder feel all warm and fuzzy? And you NEVER breed DT x DT. A Dt x ST will give you bent spines and short stubby bodies.. why do you want to double up on that?

Bringing ANY life into the world should be done responsibly. What happens when you get a large spawn? And you are trying to jar 100+ fish? How about the 2-3 hours every night doing water changes? All for fish that have no purpose. And when you get tired of all the work they rot and suffer. No chain will take local fish. And the mom and pops at least want some quality. That bumpy topline will end up in a lot of his offspring.. no one selling fish wants that. Are you prepared to humanely kill all those fish? He is a pet and should not be bred.
 
#4 ·
Thanks!, I wanted to know what people thought of him other than "oh hes cute!" And I will have to think about it some more before/if I go through with a spawn.
 
#6 ·
Pet store bettas are fine to breed... many people that have won shows have won with fish bred down from pet store bettas. It's people's personal preference on what they wish to breed, and where they got their fish - but store bettas are just as good as all the rest.

He is pretty in an unique/color way, but that is about it, imo..
 
#14 ·
I seriously doubt the winners at shows come from pet shop stock. Know most people showing and can only say one.. in the NB classes has used pet shop stock. Until those fish can win in the open standard classes.. best to say show winning fish come from the better lines. And most of us are pretty picky who we buy from..
 
#7 ·
Honestly the "Beware Petstore Genetics" is a hoax. The majority of chain stores get their bettas FROM the same thailand breeders that sell on Aquabid, the ones on Aquabid just tend to have a higher quality. Even the local privately owned petstore I go to gets imports.

It may take more time looking for the appropriate matches and quality, and more spawns to breed down the line, but you could truly get some amazing results.

And its sad, but if you have deformities, you can always cull your spawn to pare down the amount of fish to improve your line.
 
#10 ·
i thought most chain petstores got theirs from industrial breeders like segrest farms, not from independent breeders, either domestic or import.
 
#8 ·
So what if I bred him to a good quality CT female I have? I am really just looking to improve finnage?
 
#11 ·
Some stores do get them from USA mass bred places. Because it is cheaper, then to import from thailand. Not all stores get them from thailand. I know this about stores in MY area.

To be honest however, it is up to YOU what to breed. My doubletail does have the "mitten tail" as mentioned above, but it is not as noticeable. The cool thing about bettas is that you find another, to offset the "bad" in a fish and create something wonderful. How else would half-moons, doubletails, etc exist? Magically? Unlikely! It took time, effort, and someone who wanted perfection to create such finnage.

Although I will say I do notice the uneven head, which can be like spoonheads where some of the fry may or may not get it. You just never know... Personally I wouldn't breed him for that reason, but again it is up to you :)
 
#12 ·
honestly it's his back that's bothering me the most...he's got a VERY pronounced hump under his dorsal fin.
 
#17 ·
I didn't end up breeding him. I didnt notice the hump until after you guys pointed it out somehow. I had to euthanize him bc of dropsy last week. I've got a few others I'm going to ask you all to critique here in a few days though
 
#19 ·
Well, this IS a thread in the show section of the forum so you're going to get honest opinions from breeders. In the future, to avoid arguments I feel it's best to post threads about fish that are pets in other sections and leave this section for show fish and questions pertaining to show fish.
 
#20 ·
I apologize. I've been studying the genetic lines of fish, and being told that you CAN NOT do it except the way that someone else says just got my back up.

I believe it may take time for a person willing to do it, and I understand why someone who is a frequent of shows would not want to waste the time on it.

But having someone insult my ability to recognize or follow the standard set by the IBC or another Betta conglomerate was just plain ignorant to me. I have eyes to see, and to read. I will accept opinions, and knowledge to fill gaps of ignorance, but not insults to my intelligence.
 
#22 ·
I agree with dramaqueen.
In this section you are looking for fish that will produce quality right off the bat. We do have a regular breeding section as well for pet fish.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#23 ·
I agree with what Dramaqueen said, but if someone does not have the money to buy top show quality bettas to breed off the bat, then how are they to go about asking breeders on how to eventually breed to show quality?

Keep in mind, I dont want to offend Basement Bettas Opinion, or anyones.

But if someone can take wilds, and get VT, and then Deltas, and then HM, and breed up to perfection, or take a regular HM with fringing, and eventually breed a unique looking CT, then where can they get this advice?

If it is in the pet betta section, people automatically assume they are not aiming for show standards.
 
#24 ·
Realistically I think it will be much more expensive to start with low quality fish and breed for generations than to spend a little extra on good fish. But maybe that's not true.

I don't think anyone here has started from bad fish and gotten amazing fish.. This takes years and years and years to accomplish, frankly more years than the human lifespan can allow, if we are taking wild types and breeding to half-moon. Look how long it took us to get this far.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#29 ·
That is an interesting thought, and I almost want to say CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. But from wild to HM would be insane, although the concept of HM hadnt even been thought of. If you have the general idea of the end result, it may only take a few years from VT.

I may start a decisive blog. Go to my LFS, pick out several of their best, and see how long that takes to attain a show quality fish. That may actually fit right in with my study... Cool beans, Bro.

I love the MODs here, and I love the work yall do.
 
#25 ·
From reading this post and others in this section... it just seems like BasementBettas is rude to the point of being cocky. Sorry, but that is the truth and everyone here knows it. Even you MODs. If anyone else wrote like that in this forum, they would be reprimanded, but you guys give BB too much leeway to the point of favoritism and even defending how that member is. Yes that person won many awards, but that does not give them the right to bash people, which is what has been happening not only on this post, but others.

Please, treat everyone EQUALLY. This post will most likely get deleted I'm sure.. but someone had to say it.

Sorry.
 
#26 ·
:-DIf you want to breed, go for it! It is your fish, and with some flaws, he is beautiful! Nice colors, but his fins aren't the best. I say who cares! Your decision, and personally, I would be happy to have a betta that beautiful!
 
#27 ·
BasementBettas has been reprimanded before. Sometimes the way people post and their wording can come off sounding rude and cocky but BasementBettas is neither of those when you get to know her. She's very knowledgeable and I trust her opinion. If anyone has an issue with the moderators on this forum then I suggest you take it up privately with them.
 
#28 ·
The mods here are some of the best and hardest working mods on the net. They keep everyone in check.
 
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#31 ·
It doesnt really seem like a challenge if you just bought a pair from a single breeder. Then it wouldnt be UNIQUE to YOU. If I were going into the show cirquit, I would probably buy from two seperate breeders, and aim for something different... Otherwise its just like... You dont really have any credit for your fish...because they are the OTHER breeders fish, you just spawned them. Or am I being neurotic?
 
#33 ·
OK, I see your point. :) If the breeder said "Here are your two fish," then, yes, you're just spawning them.

But say YOU were the one to choose your pair from a lot of different fish that a breeder had. I don't know how many fish a breeder would have at once, but I'm thinking it would be quite a few.... And if you wanted to breed for fuller fins, you would select a different breeding pair than if you wanted breed for some other characteristic. So it would be up to you to decide which fish you want, based on the characteristics you want to develop.

Also, even if two breeders are trying to breed for the exact same characteristic, they might not select the same two fish. You might pick fish "A" and "B," but someone else might think he/she would get better results by selecting "A" and "C."

So in these cases, even if you selected the fish from a single breeder, you'd still need to decide which fish would give you the results you want....

Or, as you said, you could just buy from different breeders, which allows you to look at more breeders' fish -- and probably none of us minds doing that! Just look how popular the "Aquabid thread" is, as we all drool over the pretty fish. LOL
 
#34 ·
This is what interests me. My aunt breeds pugs, and my friends mother breeds rottwielers. Now. In dogs, breed standard has gotten AMAZINGLY specific. But from their experiences, and case studies, "pureblood" pups and dogs have a HUGE amount of health defects, like hip displasia or psychological problems.

Bull terriers actually have the predisposition for severe OCD. Breeders speculate this can be solved by careful crossbreeding to expand the genepool.

Now, with Bettas, is this a similar case? Is fin biting and egg eating a genetic disorder? Is the noticable decline in "good daddies" a genetic defect bred into these fish due to our singlminded quest for specific traits?

Ive been breeding VT and some of the more worked on forms like DT and HM...VT show ten times better ability at spawning and nest mouthing than the more refined bettas. I plan on expanding upon this...perhaps I should make a new thread elsewhere, but I suspect the quick goal of getting straight to the show quality fish is weakening the genetic pool of these form types.
 
#35 ·
Breeding is only the start. The fish have to be raised and keeping HM finnage in perfect shape into and through a show season is no easy task. You may start with a pair from a breeder.. but the reality is it is still WORK to get them to be show fish. And siblings are best to start as you have traits you want often in both fish. Combining two unrelated fish will give genetic dumps and the traits you want rarely in a majority of fish. No need to reinvent the wheel. Take advantage of what another breeder has accomplished and go from there.
 
#36 ·
Breeders take different routes. Line breed 10 generations to fix something. Out cross every third generation, breed parallel lines. Start on one path and change to another. I do not like a lot of line breeding personally as I think the fish lose some aggression. But other breeders are successful at it. We all have different water, different amounts of time to spend, different ideas on feeding. I have found most egg eating in my house was due to bad water. Corrected the water and no more eating eggs. I still get one here and there.. but not enough to say a problem. Also remember many fish are shipped half way around the world to very different water and feeding. Can understand the spawning issues there. I don't tend to have issues with fish I have bred and raised. I also spawn early.. which in nature they do. Spawning a year old betta for the first time is like telling a 60 year old man it is now time to have kids.
 
#37 ·
I do follow your blog on what you do, and think your work is inspired, but this is something that I have been following since I started biology class in middle school.
I understand the top breeders perspective but this possibility of restrengthening bad defects is something that I have to test out, because it is a trend followed in other species.

Other people dont have the time or the resources for this, but I do. Wouldnt YOU want to know if eventually ten years from now, it is even MORE difficult to breed the fish that you love? To care for them? Or the possibility that the amount of selective breeding and inbreeding has shortened their lives considerably?
 
#38 ·
But.. Would your aunt take a pug from a pet store to her line? Puppy mills and fish mills are quite similar. I'm sure dog breeders would argue that a pet store dog would be more trouble to breed up than it's worth as well..

I am not sure what sort of defects you are talking about.
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#39 ·
She has taken adult dogs from non certified breeders. As long as they were clear of defects and close to the standard, she begat from two of those litters dogs that WERE show quality, the only issue with the dog scene is that with a lot of "pedigree" dogs, even if they are perfect, it is really difficult to get the pedigree without parent pedigree as well.

This is why the Rotties were never bred without parent pedigrees... She didnt want to deal with any shinannigans. But a lot of her pups bred from the pedigree parents werent show quality.
 
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