Betta Fish Forum banner

First he couldn't stay down, now he's struggling to get to the surface...

1K views 26 replies 3 participants last post by  chicagojo 
#1 ·
My son's betta Rock N Roll has been having some SBD issues as of late. He'd been doing fine for a couple of days when 2 days ago my son noticed that he was having a hard time swimming down into the bottom of the tank - he could get down, but then he'd pop right back up again, almost like he was too buoyant.

We've been fasting him for the past 2 days and this morning I was initially delighted to find him swimming around all over the tank, including near the bottom, without apparent difficulty.

Now, though, he seems to have developed an opposite problem - although he can swim fine very near the surface (like within mm) when he actually goes to the surface for air, his body becomes almost vertical, like his tail is weighted or something, and he can't stay at the surface for very long.

He otherwise seems fine but I'm worried he may not be getting enough air since he's only able to stay at the surface for a second or two at a time. I tried lowering the water level in his tank a bit, and he'll be getting a water change later today. I'm continuing to fast him until I have a better sense of what's going on.

Any thoughts/suggestions? Thanks!
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Oh noes Rock n Roll!
Was it early November he had SBD issues before? And how long was he in treatment for it?

Go ahead and unfortunately, start him again on it- 1 tsp of Epsom Salt per gallon, daily 100% water changes for the next 10 days. Go ahead and do the full time of 10 days and see where we stand afterwards. If he starts to bobble again after a full treatment, I will have to double check- but he may have a chronic case of SBD and may end up on Epsom for longer period of time (we would figure out the water change routine if that is the case).
Since fasting, change of diet and how much he eats hasn't helped any and it looks like it may have returned.. he may just have problems with his swim bladder that may come and go.
Or the last round of treatment wasn't long enough for him- so more is needed.

Epsom is safe enough they can live in it indefinitely, but would rather him not have to if possible. I'll do some more research in case there may be another underlying issue with him other then his swim bladder, but at this time everything points to problems with it- so go ahead and lets see if it is SBD and see if we can clear it up- if not, then we can rule out SBD and focus on some other problem involving the swim bladder.

Poor little guy, and poor you and your son.. I hope this one round will be the last needed.
 
#3 ·
Myates to the rescue again!

Before I saw your response I ended up doing a 100% water change. Even while cupped he seemed to be doing that vertical thing and having trouble staying all the way at the surface, but now in his fresh new water he seems like he is doing better and is able to stay at the top if he wants to.

Should I still start the epsom salt right away? Or should I hold off and see how he does in the next day or two?

A more complete history/timeline: His original SBD issues were in mid-October, I think that was one of the things that first brought me to this forum. He was fine for probably almost 2 months after he finished treatment for that (during that time he was moved from his original 1G unheated bowl to a 2.5G heated tank but he did fine with that transition) and it's really only been the past 1-2 weeks that he's suddenly been having problems again.
 
#5 ·
Never mind, my question was answered for me - his "recovery" turned out to be short-lived so he is now in the Epsom bath, which I will plan to continue for 10 days with 100% daily water changes. Should I also plan to fast him for the whole 10 days? Thanks!
 
#6 ·
No, no need to fast now unless he is bloated/constipated- hopefully the Epsom will help him out, hopefully it's something simple as SBD and nothing permanently wrong with his swim bladder :(

I'm off for a bit- will check back later. Good luck on everything.
 
#8 ·
Just a quick update - he seems to be doing quite a bit better now. I'm not sure if he was bloated or not - he gets this weird kink in his body that he had when he had SBD before and then developed again more recently. Just in case, I'm going to fast him for a couple of days more, then soak his pellets for a while. I will definitely continue the full 10 days of Epsom - it seems to be making a big difference for him. Hopefully he'll see another period of good health after this! Merry Christmas!!!
 
#9 ·
How is he doing?

Soaking the pellets won't do anything other then diminish the nutrients (they start to lose them as soon as they hit the water). I don't believe it's bloating as he doesn't eat a whole lot.. and you would be able to tell as he would have a big rounded belly that is extended more then normal after a meal.
 
#10 ·
Thanks so much for checking in! He is doing much better. I would say back to his normal self except that he's a VERY hyper fish and the QT tank he's in right now is cramping his style a bit, I think. Otherwise, he seems to be doing very well. I am hoping this will be a full recovery.

That's good to know about not soaking the pellets. I will stop doing that (he has eaten 1 soaked pellet for each of the past 2 days). He hasn't pooped since I started the Epsom, but I think he was pretty well cleaned-out at that point since I'd been fasting him for a few days already and he had pooped twice since the fasting began.

Any idea what the kinking in his body could be - can that be a symptom of SBD? I tried to take a pic of him while it was going on but I don't have a camera right now except for my phone and I couldn't really get a good image. I almost seems like his top fin is too heavy for him and starts to pull the back half of his body over and to the side so he is bent and kind of twisted in the middle, if that makes any sense. Anyway, if it happens again I will borrow a better camera and try to post pics for advice. Meanwhile, fingers crossed, he is doing better...
 
#11 ·
It definitely sounds like he has something going on with his body inside- some form of deformity possibly causing this problem to come and go?

Was there any chance he had become injured? Possibly with a net, or he jumped out?

SBD is usually tilting sideways, or straight up and down.. I haven't personally heard of it twisting the body, but it doesn't mean it isn't possible.

I guess all we can do now is wait and see- continue the full 10 days and go from there, grab a picture when/if you can. If this happens again, or it pops back up shortly after treatment I'll go and talk to some experts and maybe one of us can come up with something to help him.
 
#12 ·
He hasn't been injured that i'm aware of but it's possible that something happened to him before we got him, or the first few times I tried to net or cup him I wasn't very skilled so I might have accidentally hurt him then. The weird thing is that this issue completely went away for over 2 months when his original SBD resolved (that was for sure a true case of SBD - he was floating on his side an constipated after being fed a diet of only bloodworms - bad pet store advice).

This time he also kept tipping onto his side (but could eventually right himself) and then became vertical like I described. The kinking thing seems to be something additional that happens when he is having swim bladder issues.

I really appreciate the help. Will keep you posted on his recovery and if he had any more issues
 
#13 ·
Poor little guy.. it just may be a muscle spazz (I hope). Definitely keep us updated on how he progresses. He may just have a chronic bout with SBD every so often.
He's lucky to have you guys as his owners :)
 
#14 ·
I'm sorry to report that he's not doing so well again. I did his water change around 4:30 and my son fed him one pellet - within 30 minutes he was tilting onto his side again (but not completely on his side and able to upright himself still) and now can't stay down from the surface - every time he swims downward he pops right back up again. I feel so bad for him - he looks kind of stressed out and scared as he frantically flaps his fins trying to go down and just can't stay there. I don't know what to do for him now...he has eaten for 3 days now without pooping (just 1 pellet per day but still...) and is starting to look a little bloated, especially on one side, so I'm thinking maybe I need to fast him again for a while? And should I increase the concentration of Epsom? I'm worried because last time he got better pretty quickly in the Epsom and this time he's just getting better, then worse, then better, then worse. Appreciate any help/suggestions - he is such a sweet little guy - I hate to see him like this...
 
#15 ·
Ok, so this morning he is much better again. When I went to check on him this morning I found him in the act of pooping out a HUGE poop (like, almost as big as his head) and now he is swimming around fine again and acting normal. This is the third time he has gotten better, then worse, then better again. I don't know what to do. Should I fast him for a couple of days to give his insides a rest? Or now that his system is moving again should I continue feeding him? And what if he gets worse again? Sorry for all the questions, I am just really worried about him and I know my son is too.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Poor fella, fishy and your son :(

Have you tried feeding daphnia? It may be hard to get in some areas, I would call your local pet stores and chain stores to see if they have any frozen daphnia- if not you can probably get freeze dried.

It's a natural way for them to get good fiber and protein which will help them stay "regular". I would recommend feeding it a couple of times a week in place of a meal- don't start off feeding a lot of it and meal after meal, want his system to not react to an influx of sudden fiber as that may cause constipation too (basing it off of us humans who start eating a lot of fiber and at first can experience it - but not sure about fish and their reaction to it).

Since here shortly I won't be around for a while due to another surgery, going to PM a couple of people that I know who can help and have a more understanding about how a fish works- inside and out. Hopefully they can help keep him going (no pun intended!) and see if there may be something that I have missed.

The only thing that doesn't fit in well is the curving of the body. Go ahead and just feed him 1-2 pellets a day until he is better, unless Oldfishlady or Sakura thinks otherwise.

(And don't ever be sorry! You are doing the best you can and doing more then a lot of people would for our finned friends :) Ask away, we want him healthy and happy too! )

Edit: Just wanted to check- since his last case of SBD, have you changed his diet any? Brand of pellets/flakes?
If not, you may want to try that as well- Omega One, Hikari Bio-Gold, TopFin and New Life Spectrum are all good foods.
 
#17 ·
Sounds like Myates has covered everything and you are in good hands......

You may have posted this already...but how old is this Betta...I ask because the deformed back has me concerned.....be sure and wash you hands really good after working with him and the water to be safe especially if you have any open wounds on your hands.....
 
#19 ·
the deformed back has me concerned.....be sure and wash you hands really good after working with him and the water to be safe especially if you have any open wounds on your hands.....
Ok, so I have to admit, you got me a little worried here so I have been doing some research on these forums...are you concerned this could be a case of TB? If that was the case, would it be normal for the fish to straighten out and look normal much of the time? I have also noticed that the direction of the curve sometimes changes (sometimes to the left, sometimes to the right) - it almost seems like maybe his dorsal fin is too heavy for him to hold upright all the time and when he's resting it tends to flop over to one side or the other, causing his body to curve...is that even possible?

Or maybe I am just in denial because if we are dealing with a serious fish health issue that could potentially impact the health of my son/family then I am really going to be stressed out about how to manage this.

Anyway, if you have any thoughts/advice I would greatly appreciate it. I just did 100% water change again with Epsom and will feed him one pellet later on. It sounded like maybe Myates was suggesting that trying a different brand of pellet may help him - any recommendations of one I should try (are there any that are even smaller than the Hikari Bio-Gold?)
 
#18 ·
Thanks so much to both Myates and Oldfishlady!

I'm not sure of his age but we got him from our local pet store about 6 months ago. His back doesn't look that way always, it kind of comes and goes...very strange.

May I ask what you are concerned this might be? I am wondering because my son has pretty bad eczema (a skin condition) on his hands and there are often open cracks in his skin so if I should have him avoid working with the fish for some reason I would want to know and then I would modify his fish care responsibilities so that he is not coming into contact with him or the water directly.

To answer Myates questions, I have not tried daphnia but will look into whether it's something I can get around here. Before his last case of SBD he was eating bloodworms because that's what the pet store had told us to feed. After coming here and learning more I switched to Hikari Bio-Gold and that is what he's been eating ever since.

Good luck with the surgery, Myates, and thanks for leaving me - and Rock N Roll - in good hands!
 
#20 ·
Mycobacteriosis marinum (fish Tb) the fish immune response is what keeps it at bay...same with humans....you always need to be careful when immunocompromised......good hand washing and with open wounds-gloves if you are compromised - the odds of a healthy hobbyist becoming infected is rare.....very rare...but it can happen....when we have a sore on our hand that will not heal we know what to tell the doctor to culture for.

I didn't mean to scare you-but when you have a fish that has chronic health issues with multi treatments and continues to decline....sometimes its best to error on the side of caution...I don't like to recommend euthanasia but I feel I need to warn since we don't alway know health history of the hobbyist-especially when signs/symptoms are starting to show up that could indicate active TB...this bacterium takes a long time to kill a fish-sometimes years..we all have this in our tanks but its not always infectious to us or our fish....but we do need to be aware.

Other things can cause the deformed spine as well and this is usually nutrition, vitamin, mineral related-when its not genetic
 
#21 ·
Yikes.
Okay.
Sorry, I am pretty new to fishkeeping and didn't originally anticipate it would get this intense.

So...how would I know for sure (or do you really every know for sure?) Are there other signs I should be looking out for? Or, in your experience, does this pretty much sound like this is what's is going on here?

So, assuming the worst for the moment, a few questions...we have another betta that lives in a separate tank but we have been using some shared fish care equipment for both of them...I am sensing that is not a good thing...and guessing it is probably too late to do anything to avoid the other fish being exposed?

My son has quite a few health issues (asthma, eczema, severe food & environmental allergies...in fact, we ended up getting this fish because it was one of the few pets the doctor said would be ok for him)...now I am feeling worried about him taking care of a fish that could make him sick...

For now, I am taking over full care of the fish. If I was going to wear gloves (my hands are pretty dry/cracked now too) is there any particular type of gloves I should use to avoid harming poor Rock N Roll with any type of residue or anything? We have a large supply of disposable "Nitrile Exam Gloves"...if I rinsed these under hot water while on my hands would that be safe for the fish?

Are there any other precautions I should take? I often dump the old tank water into the kitchen sink and rinse the tank and accessories there - is that dangerous?

I don't know what to do here...I know that as soon as I tell my husband about this whole situation he is going to say the fish has to go...I am crying now thinking about it...and what am I going to tell my son...

On a positive note, after eating today he did not become symptomatic again. So I guess that's some small piece of good news. I really love that little guy...
 
#22 ·
Sorry I didn't mean to scare you.......we all have this in our tank-its everywhere-in the soil, air, on your counter top on the bottom of your shoes....etc........its the fish and our immunity that keeps it at bay-compromised immunity is when you need to worry about you and your son...fish TB is not like the TB humans get with the lesion on the lungs...its localized usually to the hands/arms-a sore that doesn't heal and when left untreated can become problematic=as long as you are aware and know what to look for....all should be fine.....but good hand washing should be the norm for all of us as a general rule

The only 100% way to know is from the nodules on the internal organ after death and C & S.......
 
#23 ·
Ok, thanks, I feel somewhat reassured...now I have a more practical question...Rock N Roll seemed to be doing well for much of yesterday and today until just now, when I noticed once again that he keeps popping back up to the surface no matter how many times he tries to swim down and that weird kink in his body is back. This didn't happen shortly after eating or a water change - it has been about 7-8 hrs since either of those things happened and I have had my eye on him off and on since then (he's currently being kept in the kitchen so I'm around him a lot) and the issues just started within the past 30 min or so. He is at least a week into the Epsom treatment (I will need to look back earlier in this thread to see when I actually started) and he is still having these issues...what should I do?

I have not had a chance to look into getting the frozen daphnia but will try to make some calls around tomorrow. I feel like that may help him because I think part of the issue is that he's not very "regular" and tends to get super-buoyant like this when it's been a couple of days since he's pooped (our other betta poops at least once a day, so I've assumed that is "normal" whereas Rock N Roll is about every 2-3 days or so).

Also, I am still using Epsom concentration of 1 tsp/gallon - should I increase to 2 tsp or even 3 to see if that helps him?

Thanks - and Happy New Years (almost)
 
#25 ·
Ok, thanks. I will up the concentration with today's water change. Should I also extend the treatment so he gest some solid period of time with that higher concentration?

Of course, he pooped this morning and is now swimming around fine again...he makes these HUGE poops, especially given his very tiny size (he is literally half the size of our other betta, maybe even smaller). I can't help but think that's somehow the cause of his troubles but not sure what can be done about that...
 
#26 ·
Depending on his genetics it could be part of the cause...shorter body, more compact etc....poor and/or improper care during important phases of growth and development stages are all possible causes as well.....nutrition can be a big issue in some G/D stages...its hard to say......And sometimes its not even the swim bladder that is the problem per se-it can be an inflamed or impacted duct or even the labyrinth organ that is causing the symptoms.

Epsom salt is safe to use long term and he may need a low yet therapeutic dose all his life-that being 1tsp/gal....right now I would go ahead and get him in the 3tsp/gal and keep him in that for at least 10day......

I don't recall what water change schedule or tank size he is currently in/you are using for treatment-but if you are not already-I would do a 50% daily to every other day using the premixed treatment water for 3 days with 100% every 4 days-no filter or water movement, temp at 77-78F and plastic veggie wrap over the top to help retain heat and humidity for the labyrinth organ.
 
#27 ·
Ok, sounds good. I just put him in 3 tsp/gallon. His hospital tank is only 1/2 gallon (so that I can float it in the 2.5G to maintain heated temp) so I have been doing 100% daily water changes while he is in there and will plan to continue to do the same for the 10 days of 3 tsp/gal.

His usual tank is 2.5G heated (76-78 degrees) and unfiltered so it sounds like that will still work for him long-term from what you've described. I typically do one 50% and one 100% water change per week. When he moves back to that tank, if he is still on the Epsom I may need advice about whether his water change schedule should change any.

Also - good news - my LPS had frozen daphnia! It came in these huge (relative to him) cubes. The pet store guy said to just swirl one cube around in the tank water for a couple of seconds and whatever comes off is his "meal" then re-freeze the cube until next time - does that sound right? And I know Myates said to beware of feeding the daphnia too often - would maybe like every 3rd day be good?

I'm feeling quite guilty about this guy. We were totally ignorant fish owners when we first got him, going on very minimal advice from the teenage pet store employee who sold him to us, and I'm afraid he may be now paying the price. Only due to the sudden death of another betta 2 months after we got them both did I start to do more research and learn more, and changed lots of things about our fish care, but now I'm worried that those 2 months may have been pretty hard on him...
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top