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"What if you bred..." thread

4K views 79 replies 17 participants last post by  Myates 
#1 ·
Many of us here would love to learn more about the genetics of color and finnage transmission and what one might expect from breeding certain pairs. This seems to be a common question on this board, and I think it would be useful to have an entire thread of such questions and see what the pros had to say about what to expect, as it would help those of us newer to the hobby to learn.

New breeders are curious about the transmission of colors, patterns, and tail types--and of course want to avoid faults that they might not otherwise see. If you respond, can you provide rough percentages of colors, patterns, etc., and the reasons one could expect them?

Thank you so much to any pros who choose to respond to this thread. You are doing new breeders a big service!
 
#3 ·
Breeders: If any of you would like to post pictures of spawns you've done, with what the results were and why, that would be enormously useful, as well. The main goal of this thread is to give beginning breeders information that will help them make their own good breeding choices without having to ask about each potential match.
 
#5 · (Edited)
We will need a few hints, like is he a dragon, a marble, etc. Better yet, what is his background. I don't trust pictures because they don't always give the fish justice or the opposite, good lighting will make the betta brighter. And light angles can show different color reflections.

I'm guessing he is a blue dragon marble. Looks as if he was a result of regular x dragon cross - at least 2 generations before him. The cellophane implies he also has cambodian background. I could be wrong.

The female too seems to be of similar background. She is possibly his sibling. She is showing white as well as cellophane. This could mean anything. I doubt she has opaque background though. I'm guessing more to a fancy background.

Color probabilities would include; royal blue (probably very few solid), fancy mixes, cellophane, maybe cambodian (highly dependent on background - how far along the line was cambodian introduced). Any of which could be partial dragons.

Fin wise; both are 4 ray, round edged caudal. The male has big enough fins but the female has rather small dorsal. You will only have few 180* HM (rounded edge). Most should be SDeT. I have never taken notice on body form results, so I'd rather not comment on that. Dorsals should lean back. If lucky (if hidden in the background) you might get upright dorsals but the chances are very slim.
 
#7 ·
They are very very cute ^^ love their colors.. I'm one of those that would try them just to see what I would get and work on that - as mentioned above, they would need lots of work - but it may pay off in the end. The only factor you don't know about is the parents of these, etc. May have a hidden surprise.. The only reason I would attempt them is because I have people, such as a wholeseller who sells to stores and individuals that would take any offspring I couldn't sell off my hands for a great deal. That's why I do a lot of "lets see what I get" spawns :)
But if these two were coming from overseas then I wouldn't spend the money on them.. only if they came from a breeder within the States, as the cost may not be efficient for how many generations it would take to clean them up.

Unfortunately most of the time breeders don't know the background of the fish they are getting when they buy on AB, Ebay, etc.. an F2 from a line I am working on has thrown out a ton of doubletail genes.. the father, a dragon, coming from an IBC judge/breeder from Thailand, the female from a local breeder who told me she didn't have any DT genes - but the F2 from that original spawn thrown out 3 actual DTs and 95% with the wide DT dorsal and a few with the typical DT body.
So even when you think you know the background of some fish you will usually get a surprise thrown in at some point.

So unfortunately all you can get is an educated guess... we can say "You may get a few ___ or you may get some of this color", but you can end up spawning them and get something completely different.

I think the spawn that surprised me the most was my white dragon with red fins x AOC/multi cambodian - all different cambodians with all different colors fins and a variety of colors of cellophane layering on the body and some grizzles thrown in, etc. Just a hodgepodge of colors.. and then the F2 ended up being most DT/DT genes.. this line is throwing out some fun surprises :)
 
#8 · (Edited)
I don't have a good camera so I can't really share pictures.

One spawn I'd like to share is green (LfS - unknown genetics but all displayed were green) x turquoise with red wash (irid background - like for ever. I've been looking at his results for 2 years) = wild type colors both blue and green base (only a few), solid royal blue, royal blue with red wash, turquoise, solid copper (majority), platinum (solid and red wash), cellophane. . . . I lost most of them due to unstable water source, so I can't really say which outcome was actually dominant and to what percentage. All I know is copper made up about 50%.

This defies all theory. So don't ask me to explain why. LOL

This is the best I could do.
View attachment 166274
 
#9 ·
Indjo and Myates, that is all great information. Thank you! Indjo, that does seem like interesting results for that match! Myates, could you expand on why the DT gene isn't desirable? The pair I am trying to spawn right now is a green marble (butterfly) HM DS to a green marble DT DS (both shown below). Is this a bad idea? If so, they have not spawned yet, and I could always remove her and try him with a different female.
 
#10 ·
DT gene is not undesired. But it is very rare to produce DT without DT/geno parents. Myates' result also defies theory. That's what's interesting about the spawn/fry.

I don't see why you shouldn't breed the above pair. You could improve his dorsal with DT genes - hoping the rays will branch like the caudal. Just don't breed DT to DT more than once. Always breed DT to a single tail to avoid possible deformities.
 
#11 ·
I have bought this female and have been looking for a nice male for her:


I found this guy on AB today, and my, he is pricey. But he does seem gorgeous. With this pair, would I mostly get their same colors, or can I expect something else? With HM to HMPK would get about 50% HM and about 25% HMPK, and 25% other? Is that right? What are y'all's opinions of these guys as a pair?

 
#12 ·
His caudal could be wider and he appears to have a dip behind the dorsal. Breeding the two would likely produce a longer finned HMPK. Both have very rounded caudal tips. IMHO the colors are just kinda...blah. I would maybe look for a bold blue male or a solid black one. Mustard gas would work as well. They both have short rays at the beginning of the anal.
Hmmm. I think you could do better.
 
#13 · (Edited)
This is a very interesting thread! I just bought one female and one male, I'm not sure about breeding the two but in the description the male was advertised as show quality, and the female, well I couldn't resist her. Extremely gorgeous. I'm still doing my research as I don't like to be unprepared for anything. (probably why my diaper bag weighs 30lbs, lol) Here are the two. I love them just as individuals but was wondering if I did in fact try to breed them in the future, what the outcome would be. I bought/ process of buying them from a seller on ebay who seems very reputable.

View attachment 168050

View attachment 168058

P.s. I bought the male at sale price since he has had fin damage.

They are advertised as a Green Hornet Female HM, and a Blood Red HM male.
 
#14 ·
I have to agree with butterflies.. he also looks to be shedding some slime coating which could be a health issue that hasn't surfaced yet.

There are slight issues with the fins, nothing major and nothing that can't be worked out easily. I would avoid the male personally just because of the slime coating.. next would be the spinal curve there.. the breeder must of saw the fins and color and hoped it would be enough to sell him.

I personally would go with this guy (great breeder)

This guy is also unique and would go with her (also a great breeder)

Be careful when buying a male for her, she has a bit of RT to her, so make sure the male's fins look nice and clean to avoid having too much. But she is a great girl and I hope you find a good boy for her!
 
#15 ·
Lamb, their parents will play a role in the outcome, but most likely you'll get a mix of blues with red wash, maybe some red with blue wash.. he's an awesome skyhawk. If you bred them I would breed back to the parent - whichever color you want the most, to get rid of the red wash/blue wash you may end up with.
 
#17 ·
Fantastic! Thank you! I should keep tract of the generations I assume for the fry, being bred back, and so forth I assume? I think I'll give it a go if I'm confident in my abilities. Do you have any good links or names of books that would be helpful in learning more? Thank you so much!
 
#18 ·
Deanna, think of bettas as a painting... you can mix all the colors you want. Sometimes they aren't as pretty, but usually you will always get something nice. It all depends on how much of a color purist you aim to be -

Take Lamb for example - breeding a red and blue fish - both are dominant colors so you will get a mix of both, but the colors will be "washed" which is not well liked among the people who show or breed for specific. Doesn't mean they are ugly or people won't love them.. just some prefer the "pure" color, while others don't mind. It depends on your goal in the end - if there is a certain color you are aiming for.
If you don't have a specific color goal then just have fun and see what you get :)
If your aim is to show, find the colors/style you want and be very choosy about the ones you breed, etc. But if it's just to make pretty fish, I'd aim more for fins and form over color as that is the deciding factor moreso than color is when certain people purchase the fish.

Lamb- definitely keep track of the lineage and breeding.. keep track of how many fry survive, how many deformities there are, the outcome of colors, males to females, etc etc.. most good breeders will keep detailed logs of their breeding when they are going to work on lines. That way if something happens and you want to duplicate a previous spawn, you know what to do and how :)

I'll PM you some links for places, otherwise there are some stickies at the top of the breeding section that may be useful :)
 
#21 ·
I asked the seller of the DT girl I bought if he had any males that would be suitable. He is going to get back to me.

If I have an ultimate goal in breeding, it would be to achieve the looks Banlean has--fish that look like art, as you say. I am certain that takes a great amount of experience, though, and am unsure what smaller goals to focus on in the meantime.

I am going to try to produce some green show-worthy fish. But I am honestly more interested in producing interesting and unique patterns and color combinations.
 
#22 ·
I agree! I also just want to breed beautiful fish. I would like the pattern of the female, but a mixture of color and the fins and form of the male. I appreciate the painting reference, kind of puts things in perspective a bit. :) Thanks for starting this thread Deanna01 and Myates for all of the help and information! I look forward to some links, and I am going to read the stickys now. :)
 
#24 ·
I did splurge on another... the seller gave me a great deal! I paid full price for this one, and he's adding a female he picked specifically for him for only $10, which is a steal if she's as great as he is, and at less than a fourth of the cost of him. After these I won't be purchasing anymore, but later might breed them, and later depending I might cross the lines. :) What do you think of him, I think he looks great with what I've read about form, fins, etc.

View attachment 168202
 
#25 ·
He's a handsome boy :) Not a whole lot of work needed on him if you do decide to breed him.

Remember when buying imports that they are a bit more temperamental to water quality and temp than domesticated ones. Make sure to have IAL available as it will help a great deal in their health and wellness. If he is domestic than even better. It's mainly due to their is a big difference in waters that we have and waters they use over there. I've always had bad luck with imports and just with domestic now.. there is another reason, but may get some people a lil upset :) So just make sure to keep up on their water changes and add in IAL and they should be fine.
 
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