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Bettas mysteriously die, noticing white mouths later.

3K views 40 replies 11 participants last post by  ao 
#1 ·
I started a sorority of bettas recently and shortly after they started dieing off. I had been keeping them in other tanks and divided areas before combining the bettas in this larger 16 gallon tank.

I've seen many other threads related to this, but it always turns into a thread about convincing the guy to buy a heater and do water changes and I miss the whole point about the disease?

I do water changes, about 50% weekly. The tank is a couple of months old now. It's planted. I has a 100 watt heater. It's only stocked with 5 false julii corydoras, 1 dwarf orange crayfish (CPO), and has also had 1 juvenile betta in a breeder box. The remains of the sorority of bettas in the tank is 1 cambodian female and 1 veil tail female. They were a few of my most docile bettas and are getting along very well. I would hate to lose them, its not easy to find docile females for a sorority.

I lost 2 fish to the pump impeller. They found a way to the back of the nano tank and it was a freak accident from there. I've since fixed that by covering the intake vents with foam. Never thought they could fit in there. Shortly after that incident I lost another betta. She initially showed signs of being sluggish and just hovering at the top of the tank. She wasn't clamped and looked normal. I did notice a small change in her mouth coloration (lighter) but it was hardly enough to think it looked too different. She died the next day. I now have another betta Ive since moved to another tank who is not moving hardly at all and her mouth is all white.

Do I have a fungus problem in my 16g? I think its what all my clues are pointing too, but I'm still quite new with keeping fish.

There's no point in saving this betta. She's too far gone and if I go by symptoms I've seen in a couple of the other bettas she will be gone in a few hours. It happend so fast and its usually down hill by time I notice the symptoms.

The big thing here is do I need to treat my 16 gallon to prevent problems with the current fish there?
 
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#2 ·
Housing
What size is your tank? 16 gallons
What temperature is your tank? 8.0
Does your tank have a filter? Dual 3-stage (built into tank)
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? 5 False Julii Corys & 1 CPO Dwarf Orange Crayfish

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Frozen Blood Worms, Frozen Brine Shrimp, Betta Pellets
How often do you feed your betta fish? Once a day

Maintenance
How often do you perform a water change? Once a week
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 50%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Prime

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: ~0
pH: 8.0
Hardness: 0 dGH (Don't have a KH test)
Alkalinity: Unsure

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? White mouth
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Hovering at top not moving much
When did you start noticing the symptoms? After adding to tank
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? No
Does your fish have any history of being ill? No were fine before moving tanks
How old is your fish (approximately)? < 8 months
 
#20 ·
Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: ~0
pH: 8.0
Hardness: 0 dGH (Don't have a KH test)
Alkalinity: Unsure
This doesn't bother anybody else?

If you are noticing the white stuff AFTER death, it is probably just fungal decomposition. If they are getting it before death, then it is probably columnaris.

I'd be more concerned about your water parameters. Where are you getting your water from? It looks like it's being run through a R/O unit or a water softener. Without replenishing natural ions in the water, it's not good for fish or even people to drink. (Essentially this sounds like distilled water)

With a hardness of 0 dGH, there are little or no natural nutrients in your aquarium for your fish to live on (stuff like iron, magnesium, etc.) that both your fish and you as a human need to live. Your KH is probably low as well, which will give rise to pH swings.

Your pH of 8 is fine as long as it stays like that. I've had fish live in pH of 8.2 at my apartment at school.
 
#6 ·
I believe you have columnaris. It's also called white mouth disease and cotton mouth disease. It's a bacterial disease that kills very quickly and it can kill off a tank full of fish in a few days.

Treatment is tough with columnaris, and many time unsuccessful. You'll need to treat the whole tank, although treating the cories may be tricky as scaleless fish are sensitive to meds and you may have to treat them at half strength.

If it was me I would destroy the sick girl and quarantine the other one so that you can treat her at full strength. There are a few different meds you can try - there is a sticky thread in this forum with info and of course there is Google. I would do some research and see what meds you would be able to get locally since the disease spreads so fast. Also research the best way to treat the cories. You could wait and see if it spreads to the cories, but the best bet is to try to treat them now.

Honestly on other fishkeeping forums I'm on people will often destroy all their fish at the first sign of columnaris, tear down the tank, disinfect it and start over because it's so virulent. But it's worth a try at least to see if you can treat them. I have no idea about the crayfish.

The meds may kill off your beneficial bacteria so you may also have to deal with ammonia and cycling issues.
 
#7 ·
Your ph is a bit high. But a higher ph won't directly kill your fish but it will lead to stress making them more vulnerable to an infection and parasites. That may be what is happening to your fish, but I'm not quite sure.

To me it looks like mouth fungus,or Columnaris. Which is caused when fish are stressed by water quality, poor diet, and in result they become prone to bacterial infections. Columnaris enters the fish through the its gills, mouth, and even through small skin wounds. The disease can spread rapidly in nets, holding containers, food or any number of other means. It is highly contagious.

To treat a betta for this you can :Change water,Vacuum gravel (bacteria thrive on organic wastes) ADD AQUARIUM SALT(enhances gill function) Treat with copper sulfate,antibiotics and chemicals (Acriflavine, Furan, and Terramycin) Discontinue carbon filtration during treatment.

But I would suggest treating your bettas in a smaller tank because catfish are highly sensitive to salt.

I hope I helped :)
 
#11 ·
Sounds like there's no hope.

What about the crayfish? "I would never put that crayfish back into any tank ever again ever?" Why are you saying this? This is a passive species of crayfish and a very small one too. Not much bigger than ghost shrimp. You blame the crayfish?
 
#16 ·
I didn't get much help here. While I have surviving fish I am not going to kill them all and take down this tank.

I am going to try Tetracycline. I will not try salt though as the corydoras can't handle that. I've also read better referenced articles that show salt does not help. Tetracycline seems to work though not everyone seems to suggest or talk about it.
 
#27 ·
Hey xeek. First, although I haven't read the whole thread I did skim so I apologize if I missed anything important. In regards to your water chemistry: it's exactly like mine so I'm guessing you have a water softener. That will result in super soft water but with a pH that is the same as water that does not go through a water softener. My water is 0 GH and pH 7.8 and my bettas all do fine in it. My plants are another story, however. If the 0 GH bothers you, I would suggest adding a pinch of coral OR a Wonder Shell to bump up the GH and aid in electrolyte balance.

That mystery solved, on to the next. I have a feeling you've got an outbreak of columnaris in your tank, as wendyjo suggested. I assume your cories and your crayfish are okay so it's only affecting your bettas?

First, you can treat for columnaris either conservatively with 3 tsps of AQ salt per gallon and lowered heat OR you can treat aggressively with medication starting with API Furan-2. Carry out all treatment in a hospital tank if you can.

Also, just as a side note: double check the adult size of that crayfish. I've heard horror stories about those things growing up and even at only 3", eating everything in the tank.
 
#28 ·
CPO crayfish get to 1.5" and Eddie is close to that already. His claws are very small and they dont get any bigger. This is a dwarf mexican orange crayfish. They are one of the most docile. They are also slow and much smaller than other crayfish. I've done all this research in any case this is way off topic and he isn't the one killing my fish.

My water is soft out of the tap and we've known this before I had aquariums. I test my water from water in the tank (why would I test it from anywhere else?).

I looked at Furan and it seems to have poor reviews. I got some other antibiotic which is known to treat this bacteria infection we're theorizing. Im treating the whole tank because the tank is contaminated I don't want it to linger for the other fish.

I started treatment today. In 24 hours I add more, 24 hours after that I have to do a small water change. I believe there needs to be four treatments to complete the process. This should be safe for my corys and inverts which is what I didn't want to use any salt or copper on.

Thanks Sakura8 and lexylex0526!

And yes believe it, my water is 0 dGH and 8 PH. That's how the water is out of my tap and other than a small drop in PH over time nothing else changes after more than a week if the water sits. I've tested so much I've gone through a batch of strips and used a quite a lot of my API Master Test kit. I test like crazy - I'm anal.
 
#34 ·
I looked at Furan and it seems to have poor reviews. I got some other antibiotic which is known to treat this bacteria infection we're theorizing. Im treating the whole tank because the tank is contaminated I don't want it to linger for the other fish.
If you were reading customer reviews on a website like Petsmart or Petco, then that is a bad idea. Any customer who posts a negative review could have easily had a bad experience with the medicine because they misused it or used the wrong type of medication to treat a certain condition. For example, if I used Rid Ich to try and treat popeye and it didn't work, so I posted a negative review. Also, do not believe what the boxes of medication tell you. Maracyn I and II tell you it can treat dropsy conditions but in reality, both meds not only can make it worse but have a whole host of side effects that can turn a bad situation worse.

The medication in Furan-2, nitrafurazone, is especially effective against columnaris bacteria. This is why I recommended it.

Erythromycin is, unfortunately, one of those meds that has been overused and misused in the past and thus, many bacteria strains have developed a resistance to it. Furthermore, it is a gram positive medication and columnaris is gram negative; the majority of bacteria encountered in the aquarium are gram negative. In other words, erythromycin will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING if your fish are affected by columnaris. It might work if your fish were affected with Neon Tetra Disease, Black Molly Disease or perhaps popeye but they aren't.

Also, if your tank was cycled, you can kiss your beneficial bacteria goodbye. Erythromycin is one of those meds that is extremely harsh on BB. I would suggest using a bacteria booster in your tank after you have finished treating with this. Seachem Stability is a good choice for this but avoid bacteria boosters by Tetra. I've heard that the bacteria they use is not even the right kind of bacteria. Use carbon to get the rest of the meds out of the water when you are finished.
 
#29 ·
0dh isnt that rare. water in queens nyc is 0hardness out of the tap.
our water is actually perfect for keeping crs ;)
sometimes I think my fish and shrimps are happier when I dont do water changes....

correct me if I'm wrong but the other med for this is kanaplex, which is usually only obtainable from online...

we've had several users combat columnaris with furan-2 sucessfully before and i believe sakura8 was there in the help thread.

all the best to you and the health of your fish.
And like previously said, please keep us updated in the progress of combating this disease, it will prove to be very valuable to future cases.
 
#32 ·
The good news is...it is possible to save a couple, rare but possible. Out of 8 guppies that had columnaris straight from the petstore using melafix, pemafix and heavy AQ salt 2 pulled thru. I knowvyou shouldn't use the fix's but it may work for the corys. Goodluck!
 
#33 ·
I am going to try Tetracycline. I will not try salt though as the corydoras can't handle that. I've also read better referenced articles that show salt does not help. Tetracycline seems to work though not everyone seems to suggest or talk about it.
I have had fought more battles with columnaris then I care to admit and Tetracycline has NEVER worked. I am not sure if its because it does not fight gram negative bacteria, which is what columnaris is OR because it does not work with PH's that are over 7.4. The same is true with Maracyn AKA Erythromycin. If you want a change in hell of winning aganist columnaris - you need something like Furan 2. I have also heard that triple sulfa, Kanaplex and a combo of maracyn and maracyn 2 may work. If you PH is an 8.0 - I would not use the maracyn combo because it is not as effective in high PH water. I had to OD to get it to work.

NOTE: I am not sure if these meds are safe for catfish.
 
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