Betta Fish Forum banner

Breeding VTs...

3K views 52 replies 18 participants last post by  bettaisbetter 
#1 · (Edited)
I have been seeing more and more people telling new breeders not to breed VTs.

If I may ask.. warn them that at this current time they aren't as popular and may take a bit longer to sell in the US, but that it is still just fine to breed them if one wishes. I have seen a few people outright tell people don't do it. That isn't fair.. if this person is willing to spend the hours a day, the hundreds of dollars to breed a fish they love.. then lets support them rather than tell them NO. We aren't here to deter people from doing something they want to do.

VTs are making some comeback due to the fact they are now incorporating certain traits in them such as dragonscale, etc. If someone is wanting to bring in some unique colors and patterns into VTs then that is great and people will purchase them for the same price as a good HM.

In the US (as other countries still love VTs, breed them and show them) they started getting ignored by breeders/showers because they were so commonplace in stores and breeders couldn't compete with the prices you find at places such as Walmart. So they came up with other fin types, etc to show and sell. Now those too are very popular and commonplace and no longer "special".

Many breeders want to breed quality VTs and show them once more - and some people are working on that with the IBC. VTs aren't any less of a fish because of the fin type - and breeders know that.. people who show bettas know that. But demand is for the other fin types, which is what caused the demise of VT breeding. The ones who made VTs "not desirable" are in fact people who just purchase bettas for pets, and people telling others they aren't worth it, not to breed, etc.

So please.. let people breed whatever type they wish to. There is nothing wrong with VTs, and if some people get their way in the IBC, they will be showing VTs once more and the demand for them among people in the business will go up.

This is all just my opinion/view on this subject.. I have warned people that it may be a bit harder to sell the average VT, but in the end, it's their choice and if others tell them not to, then they may not end up breeding at all. I am actually considering getting some quality female VTs and breeding dragonscale into them down the road as I have felt "forced" to breed HMs due to people in the mindset that the VTs aren't "worth anything". And if they are allowed to be shown in the IBC, I will be breeding them in a heartbeat.

Show a little love for VTs and support the breeders who want to help make these little guys have a nice comeback :)
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Agreed! I personally love VT and if I saw a dragonscale or butterfly VT pair, I'd snatch them up in seconds :)
 
#3 ·
my only problem with VT's stems from the fact that they HAVE been ignored by serious breeders, and hence we get a population mostly composed of puppy-milled, unhealthy fish that seem overwhelmingly to fall into the drab blue-and-red mishmash of fish we've seen a million times. if more serious breeders who produce high-quality VT's either intentionally or by simply not culling the VT's out of their HM and CT spawns, the more credibility the tail type will have on the show circuit, and the more "worthwhile" the breed will become. it's sad that an entire class of fish is poo-pooed simply for reasons of fashion.
 
#4 · (Edited)
The other fin types are now starting to fall into the "fishy mills" category too.. they still produce the VTs for stores such as Walmart, but they see the popularity of the other styles and are now starting to get them out there just like the VTs.. people want a certain type, those types will be mass produced and lower quality just the same.

A lot of serious breeders do want to breed VT, but it largely falls on the consumer - can breed some awesome VTs, but because it's a red or a blue, then, as you said, no one will buy it because it's a red.. a blue.. it's that mentality that keeps VTs on the poor side. If people understood the characteristics of a VT, and appreciated what they could be.. then they wouldn't be "drab", but instead a really pretty dalmation, a vivid red, etc. It's the mindset that some have in saying they can't be as pretty, or they aren't as pretty.
HMs, CT, DT, etc can and do fall into that category of unhealthy mishmash.. it's how they are kept, both at stores and with the majority of betta owners. VTs aren't unhealthier than an HM - they all start out the same.. it's the fact people are picking other variations over VTs that are leaving the VTs longer in the stores and therefor becoming sickly. Also many people associate droopy fins with being sickly, especially people new to the hobby as they are seeing the other types all big and full.
Some breeders will go where the money is.. so hey, someone willing to spend $20 on this one red HM then I'm breeding it.. nevermind this red VT that is exactly alike other than fin type I have bred.. they will only pay $4 for that.

They have credibility on most show circuits outside of the US, they are allowed in shows other than the IBC, which hopefully that changes this coming summer.
But you are correct, it's sad how they had fallen down in status for no reason other than they were more readily available.
 
#6 ·
i've a VT who bites his tail. it's not just an HM thing. x:

i agree with the whole fish-mill problem. if you can find a pair that is from a place that sells healthy veils, and if you can find homes for all the little babies, go for it.

my own local pet store gets their bettas from a breeder(not a company), so i see many unique colors in veils. i have an almost black veil, i've had yellow, marble, dal, i've a red-orange boy. then, there was the GREEN CT. not turquoise, outright GREEN. something i've only seen in photoshopped pictures. and, they've never had tumors or hunch-back/spoon-head, nor other issues most mill-fish seem to have. so, i'd feel okay with breeding veils from there. walmart? nah. petsmart? nope. *maybe* Pet-co...
 
#7 ·
I really want to breed nicer VTs but that would mean buying pet store fish and I'm done with that. It's not pet store fish I'm against it's the farms. They mass produce and diseases are always getting passed through to fish and then to fish room.

If Aquastar sells pairs of his amazing VTs I'll buy those.
 
#9 ·
I've been looking for the perfect marble dragonscale VT for awhile now and have had such poor luck I started getting desperate ideas of breeding VTs myself.

If there are real breeders who are interested in breeding VTs, I'll happily support them by buying as many bettas as I can.
 
#10 ·
is it commen for a vt veiltail to have a heart shaped veil in full bloom
 
#11 ·
Could you be talking about a doubletail betta? Some DTs don't have an extremely distinct split.

I'm a firm believer in letting people breed whatever they want as long as they do it ethically and humanely, and take responsibility for the animals they breed and the offsprings that result.
 
#12 ·
Could you be talking about a doubletail betta? Some DTs don't have an extremely distinct split.

I'm a firm believer in letting people breed whatever they want as long as they do it ethically and humanely, and take responsibility for the animals they breed and the offsprings that result.
no split just double rounded areas that are one piece but looks like a heart the bottem being the body of fish
 
#13 ·
none of my vt's ever had heart shaped fins.

One thing i hate about most vt's at petshops now a days is that their tails are so thin and pathetic. I can't even imagine how anyone finds them pretty. I like my boy, he has a nice full tail that doesn't seem to taper to a point. When he flares it looks like a flag and it's not too long. He had what I consider a prefect tail for a vt. Nice and round at the end too, I see less good looking vt's at petshops every year. It's gotten to a point of being very hard to find vt's with nice tails I don't even bother with them anymore. I only took in Hollow because someone owned him and didn't care for him properly, he turned out to be one of the rare boys with a good full tail.
 
#14 ·
none of my vt's ever had heart shaped fins.

One thing i hate about most vt's at petshops now a days is that their tails are so thin and pathetic. I can't even imagine how anyone finds them pretty. I like my boy, he has a nice full tail that doesn't seem to taper to a point. When he flares it looks like a flag and it's not too long. He had what I consider a prefect tail for a vt. Nice and round at the end too, I see less good looking vt's at petshops every year. It's gotten to a point of being very hard to find vt's with nice tails I don't even bother with them anymore. I only took in Hollow because someone owned him and didn't care for him properly, he turned out to be one of the rare boys with a good full tail.
hmm well i have found plenty of big veils at wal-mart the only place they sell female vts and cts but are so lazy they just lable female and never mention what kind of females but males are fine thooo.... i prefer a natural look lol
 
#15 ·
My boy Wally has one of the longest tails I have seen on a VT. It is around three inches on his tail. Walmart rescue.
 
#17 ·
In my book long means nothing if it's thin. It has to be round at the end, not taper to a point or look like a long little twig following the fish. Sorta more my idea of what a veiltail should look like is this.



and not this, which is what I see a lot and it's just...well I would never buy them, they look sickly.



The skiny thin tail no matter if it's long or not looks weird. Fuller larger tails with a little less length look nicer IMO
 
#16 ·
Heart Tail Betta are actually a type of Double Tail. The split of the double tail only occurs at the outer edge of the caudal creating a notch in the tail forming a heart shape. Although this strain is just a "faulty" Double Tail, it is highly sought after. Many people trying to develop this strain end up with true complete Double-tails.
 
#18 ·
The first picture is showing a VT with a good portion of his fin missing. The second one shows a vt in motion which sometimes creates the thin impression.

Some will hold their fins more open though, I've had success in keeping the VTs I had keep their tails spread by giving them a good flaring a couple times a day to build up those muscles.

I do understand what you are saying though, and I agree having some flare is better than complete droop..

Here is pretty much the closest to what is considered to be the standard - elongated tail with some droop and down to a rounded tip.
 
#22 ·
The right VT will sell for the same, if not more. People with that mindset and ideals and telling others that they are worthless are what is keeping them down.

Ah, but see, the talk through the show breeders is that many are wanting to bring back VTs into shows (and it's being worked on), which means these little fish will once again be bred (by other than betta farms) for quality. I have seen dragonscales in VTs popping up, Thai Flags are popular, etc etc.. so much can be placed with a VT now to make them look just as good as any other fish. It's because a lot of people want pretty fish to go "look at mine look at mine!", and they think the way for it is to have the "newer" varieties.. so now the quality of those types are going down the drain too because demand is so high.

Bring in the good show breeders, bringing up the quality of VTs and making them healthier and in some cases, better looking than HMs, CTs, etc.. then they will be all the rage too once more. It's a follow the crowd type of hype with these fish.. just like with a lot of other things - mix two dog breeds and OMG I GOTTA HAVE THAT DALPOODLAPUGGY!!! Then it's old news in a year or so. VTs were what was available the most, other tails were developed and refined and then they were the must haves, etc etc.

So.. lets bring back the classic and make them worth something.. and just because they are all blue or red doesn't make them any less pretty.. you don't look at a red or blue HM and go "Ugh.. same old blue/red".. nope, in your mind because it is a HM/CT/PK, etc it's automatically beautiful.
 
#20 ·
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem paying as much as I would for halfmoons for veiltails that look like these:









Yes, common sense--the majority of people are shallow by nature and won't be willing to pay as much for common ugly fish as they would be willing to pay for rare, nice looking fish. But the other tail types aren't all that rare either. Some stores don't even sell veiltails anymore. All they have are HMs, DTs, and CTs, and lots of them. Trust me, I've seen some really ugly ones and wonder who the heck would pay eight to ten dollars (if not more) for them. Quality VTs are not the common. If I see an unique looking VT with nice fins, I may pass up a HM for one. It's a matter of taste and opinion.
 
#21 ·
My boy Hollow keeps his tail nice and flared out, he's also a very athletic guy, for someone with a larger heaver tail he's swam under very strong filter currents without too much issue. BUT then again I also know for a fact Hollow was used for fighting or for training fighters, he has scars ALL over his face and when I got him his fins were bit to hell, not torn but bitten and Hollow isn't a tail bitter. He's also a big guy for a veiltail, his body is about 2.6-7 inches not including his tail and he's thick all over. I use to wonder if it was possible that one of his parents was a giant PK.
 
#23 ·
I love VeilTails personally, although all Bettas are great. Wally's tail isn't thin and isn't claimed together, his tail is always spread and he loves flaring.
 
#24 ·
Though I'm new to the betta scene and -slightly- biased, I think that VT's (no matter the color) are beautiful and worth just as much as an HM or CT.

They're also the first image of a betta that popped into my mind when talking about the fish, and I would hope that people could take that popularity and use it more to the advantage to the breed itself as opposed to saying, "Oh, it's common. Not worth it." Granted, my VT Bo has an interesting coloring in my eyes, but in the end, people love (or should love) their pets for their personality.

I think it would be amazing to see a greater color variety in VT's, but at the same time, I think it would be even better if the VT's themselves weren't downplayed by the pet stores. In a perfect world, pet stores like PetSmart or places that sell betta fish would keep their betta fish in conditions that would let the betta thrive in their natural glow until finding their forever homes~ if that were to ever happen, I think every fish would be valued so much more.
 
#25 ·
Myrates, I agree with you. Vts need to be properly bred. But very few people are going to buy a $35 dollar veil tail,"breeding quality" or not, when you can go to any pet store and but a very nice colored fish for three dollars. It would also be simply irresponsible to start breeding veil tails now because 1) You will have a hard time selling them, and 2) Like I said in my first comment, there are millions of vts dying on the shelves, waiting to be rescued. When you breed more vts, you are only making this problem worse. In a way it is cruel to the fish already on The shelves.

If the ibc would just make a class it would help this problem a lot.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Millions of bettas of all kinds are dying on the shelves. By your logic, betta breeders should stop breeding their fish altogether because it would be cruel to the bettas on the shelves. But should good, dedicated responsible breeders stop breeding because commerical fish farms can churn out betta after betta after betta with no concern for quality control?

The majority of the people that come out of a big chain petstore with a $3 fish wouldn't have paid $35 for another fish regardless. It's not so most much that most of the ones that get a cheap VT from Walmart think "oh, the VT aren't as good as the HM" as it is that they don't care and just want a cheap, disposable pet. The target market is completely different when we're talking about the average petstore buyer and the breeders that import fancy betta from abroad. Tail type has nothing to do with it. So, it would be like comparing apples to oranges to use them to generalize why people shouldn't breed veiltails even if they want to and are willing to spend the time, energy, and money.
 
#27 ·
Millions of bettas of all kinds are dying on the shelves. By your logic, betta breeders should stop breeding their fish altogether because it would be cruel to the bettas on the shelves. But should good, dedicated responsible breeders stop breeding because commerical fish farms can churn out betta after betta after betta with no concern for quality control?

The majority of the people that come out of a big chain petstore with a $3 fish wouldn't have paid $35 for another fish regardless. It's not so most much that most of the ones that get a cheap VT from Walmart think "oh, the VT aren't as good as the HM" as it is that they don't care and just want a cheap, disposable pet. The target market is completely different when we're talking about the average petstore buyer and the breeders that import fancy betta from abroad. Tail type has nothing to do with it. So, it would be like comparing apples to oranges to use them to generalize why people shouldn't breed veiltails even if they want to and are willing to spend the time, energy, and money.

Um no, that is not my logic at all. Half moons and all of the other tail types have a very high turnover rate. Some half moons on aquabid are gone within a day. Good luck EVER selling a veiltail on aquabid. I have seen a (nice) vt at the store, came back and dead three weeks later. So no, they do not sell much. And if they do, they are generally doomed from the start. Do you even know how many fish you can get from a spawn? Over 300. You will NOT sell three hundred veiltails. So, what do you do with the remainder? Give them to pet stores? Cull them? Either way, it is cruel to the fish. Until we can get responsible breeders and the ibc on board, it is a irresponsible act to breed vts.
 
#28 ·
Okay. So how can show regulations and standards on VTs be changed if people are being advised not to breed them? Experimenting and working on improving breeds must happen in the first place to bring about a change, no? It seems like a bit of a paradox to say that responsible breeders need to be on board and also saying that breeding veiltails is irresponsible.
 
#29 ·
The fact is, pestores overbreed them, and then disease among them spreads, and they get a bad reputation for being bad fish altogether. If people stop buying from petstores, and start out breeding beautiful veiltails, but sell them for cheaper then the petstore ones, they will sell faster, and a good reputation for them will grow. Simple as that
 
#30 ·
I don't know too much about betta keeping but I have seen similar issues in any group that includes people who are dedicated breeders v.s. people who are looking to breed based on how much they can sell the offspring for. I work in the veterinary profession and just because someone is breeding a "quality" breed doesn't mean they are breeding "quality" pets. (I've seen 4 separate kittens from a dedicated Siberian breeder who all had severe health issues that would have been easily prevented with proper care and better breeding.)
We see so many VTs in pet stores because that is where this started. I feel that other breeds are creeping into the pet store and just because they are fancier breeds doesn't mean you're going to get a better fish. If you go to walmart or other chains you're quite likely to see quite a few crowntails next to all the veil tails. If veil tails are to improve as a breed we need quality breeders who know how to improve the breed and bring focus back onto their best qualities.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top