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IMPORANT: Watch For These Disease Signs

220K views 593 replies 187 participants last post by  End Balkanization WLM 
#1 ·
I wish to spread awareness about a disease that has struck several times in the recent months. It moves very, very, very fast, often killing within 12-24 hours. Nothing is known about this disease except that it is a bacterial disease that causes rapid and acute tissue necropsy and that it seems to strike blue bettas in particular. Several people are working on identifying this disease, including veterinary student DarkMoon17, but WE NEED YOUR HELP.

If you have a betta who develops the following symptoms or dies, please DO NOT DISPOSE OF THE BODY. It is very important that we have a body to send in for a necropsy. Several people have volunteered to take the bodies to local universities or veterinary clinics near them. All we need you to do is save the body and contact DarkMoon17 or me immediately.

The symptoms of this disease are:

* graphite gray or near black tissue necropsy that spreads from the bottom of the fins upward to the body within hours
* sudden loss of mobility as the swim bladder is affected
* death or conditions so severe that they require euthanasia within 12-24 hours, occasionally as long as 36 hours

The betta will look something like this:
Blue Feather Organism Fish Tail


There have been speculations about what it is, including suggestions that it is an acute strain of columnaris, but NOTHING IS KNOWN FOR CERTAIN. PLEASE DO NOT post speculations about what this disease may be unless you have been able to identify the disease through lab work. Such speculations only cause aggressive debate.

Any and all cooperation is much appreciated as we work to identify this disease so we can figure out a way to combat it. Thank you very much.
 
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#495 ·
Hi Bcyr,

Welcome to the forum. Could you please start a new thread about your Betta? This way, more people will see it and be able to reply.

To start a new thread:
1) Click here: Diseases/Emergencies Info form..
2) Highlight and copy the information in the form.
3) Return the Diseases/Emergencies forum. Start a new thread by clicking the "New Thread" button (located above the list of current theads).
4) Past the Info form into your post. Answer the questions as best you can. If possible, post photos too.

Doing this will give people information about your fish and his current condition.
 
#496 ·
i bought a betta and he was in perfect condition but then i saw this grey-brownish spot in his tail and now hour later he has a hole, help me, i dont want him to die D:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/23rsoso.jpg
 
#498 ·
Use some aquarium salt in your tank to help it along, keep the water super clean and warm, and use an antibacterial treatment.

Here's a good page about betta diseases.
http://bubblesandbettas.blogspot.com/p/betta-diseases.html

See the pinhole fin rot? Looks familiar, right?

Also, you might want to make sure you're doing enough water changes, and using good water conditioner like Prime.

Find out if your water changes are enough:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=115758

Hope that helps. If he keeps having problems, post a new thread about it so you can get help.
 
#497 ·
That's just a tear. It's nothing to worry or stress about. Although, it looks like your betta might have fin rot as well. Or maybe he's recovering. I can't tell all that well from the picture. You should either create a new thread for suggestions or do 100% water changes daily to help his tail grow back.
 
#500 ·
A LOT of bettas in my local Meijer and Walmart are looking like this. They tend to get tumors afterwards. I don't believe it's graphite disease, but I've never bought a betta that was "infected" to observe it. Please watch him closely and update!
 
#504 · (Edited)
Hi Daniella,

I just wrote a long post, which BF then promptly ate.... *Sigh*

UV light is effective at inactivating many types of bacteria, including some species of Mycobacterium. (A few types of Myco, such as M. avium, are more resistant to UV light.)

The UV sterilizer that she's using is meant to inactivate bacteria in the water. This will reduce the number of Mycobacterium spp, especially since Myco is a slower-growing type of bacteria. However, UV sterilizers are relatively expensive, so most people won't invest in them.

Also, it won't "cure" infected fish, since the infection is often internal. (Myco often infects the internal organs. Granulomas are often seen on the organs during necropsy.) So the UV light may help reduce the concentration of Myco in the water, which can slow down the rate of infection in healthy (uninfected) fish. But it won't inactive the internal bacteria already inside an infected fish.

Here are some good articles:

Inactivation of Mycobacterium avium Complex by UV Irradiation - Has some graphs showing the concentration of M. avium at different UV dosages. As the UV dosage increases, the concentration of M. avium declines.

Efficacy of Ultraviolet Irradiation in Controlling the Spread of Tuberculosis - This study was done at a hospital. When UVGI was used, there was an 83-98% reduction in the amount of some species of Myco. However, effectiveness was related to the relative humidity of the air. At higher humidity levels, UV was less effective.

(Dear BF: please don't eat my post again! This one is a lot shorter, so maybe you'll be happier with it.)

P.S. Thank you for posting a link to that article. I hadn't read it before!
 
#505 ·
Yes I know, but did you read the article? She or he claim that the UV cured the disease even in the infected fish. That's why I said I am skeptical about it. How can it cure something internal?

Seem that it was really the mycobacterium as it was identified in her fish, but then how can infected fish regain health because of a UV? She claims that the UV helped take care of other pathogen in the tank so the fish could have enough immunity to actualy fight the mycobacter, or something like that.

Do you beleive it could be true?
 
#506 · (Edited)
Yes, I read the article....

No, I don't believe that the UV light "cured" the Myco-infected fish. I also didn't see anyplace that she made this claim, either.... Can you point out the specific location(s) where she claims that UV light cures an infected fish?

My interpretation is that she believes the UV light:
a) killed the Myco so her uninfected fish remained uninfected, and
b) killed off other pathogens, thereby preventing a secondary infection. And since there was no secondary infection, the fish's immune system was able to control the Myco - allowing it to remain healthy (at least for a longer than it would have been otherwise).

IMO, this is kind of like HIV leading to AIDS. It's often not the AIDS that kills the patient, it's a secondary disease that sets in when the body's immune system starts to fail. If the patient is able to avoid a secondary infection, he/she will live longer. And if the patient manages the condition, say by taking the appropriate medications, he/she will live longer too.... But the HIV infection doesn't go away. It's just that the patient lives longer, or is healthier for a longer period of time.

Myco causes a wasting disease. It gradually spreads throughout the internal organs. As the immune system fights it, the fish becomes prone to secondary infection. So if you can kill off the other pathogens, you may be able to keep the fish from getting sick with something else (and then dying as a result). But there is no way to "cure" the Myco. All you can do is minimize stressors (such as contact with other pathogens). If you do that, then the fish can probably live longer. But it's not "cured." It still has a Mycobacterial infection.

In the article, she writes: "My own experience suggests that mildly infected fish can control their disease to some extent." (p3) And she includes a footnote that says: "In human tuberculosis, only 10% of humans infected with Mycobacterium tuberculosis ever develop TB." (p4)

By "control," I believe she means that the fish doesn't display an active infection.

But I didn't see anyplace where she says that an infected fish can cure itself. In fact, she says: "There is no cure for MB and none on the horizon. Quarantining and good fish husbandry (Table 4) are probably more effective than trying to eradicate EM, which are part of any fish’s normal environment."

She writes that she "manages" the disease. To me, this is far different from "curing" it. In the closing photo, she shows a tank that had a Myco outbreak, and writes: "All survived the 2005 MB outbreak, but some seem to have a shortened lifespan. In 2010, I euthanized two fish that had developed hunchbacks or become emaciated. Many fish that were born shortly after the 2004 outbreak continue to do well as of 2013."

So again, there is no mention of curing it, only of managing it.

I do feel it's an excellent article. I'm surprised it didn't come up in my internet searches. So thank you again for posting the link
 
#507 ·
Yes you are right about everything. I had misunderstood the meaning of managing the disease. What was surprising to me is that she was only using a 8 watt UV, so I guess that with bacterias, even such bacteria with waxy body, a UV is really effective in killing it and preventing it from contaminating other fish.

Yes, I read the article....

No, I don't believe that the UV light "cured" the Myco-infected fish. I also didn't see anyplace that she made this claim, either.... Can you point out the specific location(s) where she claims that UV light cures an infected fish?

My interpretation is that she believes the UV light:
a) killed the Myco so her uninfected fish remained uninfected, and
b) killed off other pathogens, thereby preventing a secondary infection. And since there was no secondary infection, the fish's immune system was able to control the Myco - allowing it to remain healthy (at least for a longer than it would have been otherwise).
 
#508 ·
It's more important that the light be the correct wavelength (frequency).

Shorter wavelength (higher frequency) light, such as UV light, has a high amount of energy. This is true even when the intensity (amplitude) of the light is low.

So UV light even when dim, has a higher amount of energy than much brighter long wavelength light (such as red or infrared light).

(This is an aspect of the photoelectric effect, which was determined by Albert Einstein and Max Planck. Interestingly, Einstein won the Nobel Prize for his work on the photoelectric effect, and not his better know Theory of Relativity.... But I digress.... :) )
 
#509 ·
At some point I just thought that UV sterilizer were a gimmink and not really efficient but now that I see this article, I see it could be really helpfull especially in a drip system like mine where I have 20 fish connected.

I installed a 55 watt UV last week and it will stay there 24/7.
 
#512 ·
99% sure this is what killed my new betta. I don't have pictures yet (I'll take some once I remove his body) but his body lost all color last night and he was having lots of trouble swimming in any direction. His fins were gray on the edges and now the gray is almost halfway down his fins and his body is gray as well. He was dead when I got up this morning, it seemed to have killed him quite literally overnight.
 
#515 · (Edited)
I know you all have been talking about this new disease. I had a betta once before he was about 5yrs old when he died. I recently bought a new one and I noticed he has been acting weird from when I first bought him. Tuesday his tail was fine and yesterday his tail is almost gone. I thought he had fin rot and I have been treating him for it. But today his tail is worst than the other day and he has started slamming himself all over the tank. But he has a healthy appetite. I was wondering if you all had any ideas. it doesn't sound a 100% like what you guys had described above in posts.
 
#517 ·
Just thought I pop a post in here seeing as my friends fish died the other day. I had left another friend in charge of feeding my fish and the other one my neighbour has, she had to leave for a few days (like 2) and when we came back on the same day, found Fabian dead at the bottom of the tank.
The friend that was looking after them said that Fabian had been depressed/not moving from next to the heater. He would eat and come up for air but that was it. We chalked it down to depression as 2 of his tankmates had recently died.
 

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#518 ·
LadyRaven, that is most definitely graphite disease. Did the friend say if he was acting weird that day or the day before?
 
#521 ·
Fish don't get depressed. That is a human emotion. Fish get sick.
 
#522 ·
People think they know how animals work, but they don't. Why do elephants mourn for days after a member of the herd has died? They feel loss, they feel upset ... animals will even starve themselves due to the depression that occurs when a member they love has died or been lost. People who think they know animals are the ones who will be the most surprised.

Anyone can breed fish, but it doesn't mean that you know everything about the species. Same goes for any other animal.
 
#524 · (Edited)
This graphite disease is very similar to a disease us "old school" discus fish breeders and keepers have to watch out for, but we don't call it graphite disease, we would just call it discus disease because we never figured any other species had similar symptoms. Since discus come from a completely different biome, it's interesting we have introduced them, bred them silly, and now we are seeing various similar bacterial-induced surges of symptoms we cannot yet identify.

Within the discus community, I think there is a line of thought it is a Myo. sort of bacteria. Recommend always using gloves, not out of contracting the bacteria, but out of any risk of mutation and cross-species contamination should you come across a large population of rapid skin to skin spread.

In the discus community, we treat with immediate QT, very high temps (up to 94 degs- VERY slowly- not sure if bettas can live at this high temp)- epsom salt, Metro, and what we call intensive support: 50% water change twice a day, offered food thrice a day with cleanup immediately 5 mins later, allowing the fish to remain in QT with other sick fish they GET ALONG with, plenty of SOFT black water conditions (Indian Almond, in this case), Mongolian drift wood, low light, lots of hiding places, etc. Basically... baby them.

Clean water. Clean, clean, clean water. And always remember to redose after water change, so do your math carefully, use pharmaceutical grade meds (become friendly with a vet and actually get prescriptions- real antibiotics are actually about 5 cents every 10 pills!) and you'll save a TON of money by using a vet over the phone since most of them won't see your fish.

Here's a tip: Visit your local vet in person (try a smaller "family run" sort). Explain you'd like some time with the vet without an animal. Meet with them and explain your situation. Most days, they'll schedule a 15-min call and write a "fish-grade" prescription when you need one and you will save a fortune by picking up an antibiotic 2-3 grams of power vs. that commercial crap. Plus you can redose MUCH easier with powder that costs $2-3 vs. $9 for a box that lasts 2 doses.

When I had discus my fish were 600-800 dollars per fish. So my vet was very much obliged to help me. :) Now that I have bettas, we still have a great relationship and the same can work for you too with a good "long" relationship. :)

Also regarding the UV sterilizer... it's also about how LONG the water is exposed to the UV light. If it runs through a longer line against the UV light inside the compartment, then the UV sterilizer is MUCH more effective.
 
#525 ·
A few other questions:
1.) Has anyone performed a Fite's stain, Ziehl-Neelsen stain, or Kinyoun stain on scale scrapings, lung scrapings, or fin scrapings?
2.) If found as mycobacterium, the insertion of mycobacteriophage that is both harmless to humans and fish could be a natural way to induce death to mycobacteria without introduction of harmful antibiotics that could create resistant myco-mutation.
3.) Also, if you're interested on myco and water qual, you can view the following on a prelim water study focused on myco: http://aem.asm.org/content/71/10/5719.full
 
#528 · (Edited)
I think mind has it too

Unfortunately I think the betta I bought for my daughter has this too. I am posting a picture with flash. I couldn't see the dark tissue around his head until I took this photo with the flash. I have had him about 6 days and he stopped eating after day 3, I bought a larger aquarium, had the water tested, added a filter and a heater and he kept getting worse.
 
#529 · (Edited)
I'm terrified that my little Norbert might have this disease. He looked fine when I left the house today, and then I came back three hours later. He looks like he's slowly turning grey, it seems harder for him to swim, and his eyes look irritated and red. If this disease is going to take him, I hope it happens fast so he doesn't suffer :cry:
He's still alive, so what can I do to save him? Can I do anything? It's horrible to watch him this way... :cry:
 
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