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Please help diagnose

2K views 26 replies 8 participants last post by  small fry 
#1 ·
Four days ago I noticed a lump between the eyes on my fish, Beavis. It just looks like a raised spot, but the scales are raised just there. If it were us, it would look like we took a good bump in the middle of our forehead (if that helps to picture it). Along with that, his lips are very swollen. This combo gives him a dolphin-like profile (if that helps to picture it even more). He has tried to eat once or twice, but I don't think his lips will let him snatch the food. Besides which, I don't think he is very hungry anyway. He is not moving around much and you can see he doesn't feel well.

I have had Beavis for a little over a year. He is kept in a 5 gallon cycled tank, temp at 81F. Water changes of about 10 percent once a week, with about one-half teaspoon of salt as preventative. Water parameters are always good.

I observed him the first day and, with no improvement, the second day decided to add medicine. This was after extensive web research for a diagnosis, which I simply couldn't find anywhere. That forced me to assume it might be parasitic or bacterial. I changed half the water, added a teaspoon of salt, and then added Jungle Fugus Clear, the fizz kind. It has been two days and I have yet to see much difference. Could it be a tumor? If so, why with the lips? That doesn't make sense to me.

Did I take the proper steps so far? Anyone have a clue what could be wrong with him? Is there something else I could be doing. Oh, yeah, I tried to get a picture for about half an hour. He ain't cooperating. Thanks for reading.
 
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#2 ·
Welcome to the forum Matty68,

I'm sorry to hear that your betta isn't feeling so well.

Hmm, this is odd. It sounds like it could be a tumor, but I'm not sure. Apart from difficulty eating, are there any signs of ill health?

I know this is slightly off topic, but prolonged use of aquarium salt is known to cause organ failure. Also, I'm not sure you should have added the extra medication, especially if you do not know what you are treating.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for replying. Yes, I wasn't sure I should add meds, but I didn't know what else I could do. I know they can go quick sometimes and I wanted to try something, at least. It seems there are only a few options here. Parasite, bacterial, fungal, or tumor. I think the Jungle med has a chance of helping some kinds of the first three. I think. Tumor, I know, you can't do anything about. So, my reasoning was that it was worth a try. But, you may be right. And, believe me, I scoured the web for hours for these exact symptoms before I tried anything. On three occasions, I found folks that describe the same thing. But as my luck would have it, the question remained unanswered.

The salt thing has folks that like it and some that don't. Maybe I will quit using it. He has been so healthy for over a year, I thought it was doing him some good. Previously I had two others that I didn't use salt with. They both died. One of dropsy (I euthanised him with clove oil when I knew that's what it was) and the other just started going nuts one night and was dead the next day. The thing is, I am religious about keeping the water better than up-to-par. So I don't think it's that. After those traumas, I wanted to try something preventative with Beavis. Like I said, some like to use salt and some don't. Maybe I should quit using it.

I am at work now, but should I change out some of the water when i get home? Maybe half again, so as to clear up some of the medicine and some of the salt?
 
#4 ·
I think clean water would be helpful right now. I'm not sure exactly what's wrong with him, but if he is pretty healthy apart from that lump, I'm going to hazard a guess that it is a tumor.

From what I've read, by constantly adding salt, things that get your betta sick will be already used to and resistant to lower levels of salt, so if something did pop up, you'd need to add more salt, which isn't exactly good for bettas seeing as they are fresh water fish, no salt water. But, this really is off topic.

Oh, what are you feeding him?
 
#5 ·
I feed him Omega One betta flakes. When I got him he wouldn't eat pellets and I tried three different kinds. But he took to the flakes, so I stuck with it. Along with the occasional frozen bloodworm treat.

I will do his water tonight when I get home. Unless anyone else out there has an opinion on this that would be different.
 
#6 ·
Hmm, try feeding him frozen bloodworms. They might be easier for him to eat.

I'm not expert on fish diseases, but you should do a water change when you get home to definately get the medication out. I'm guessing someone else can help you with more indepth information from there
 
#7 ·
Oh, yeah....don't forget the lips. They are about twice the normal size to the point where they look deformed. So, it's more than just the lump. And that is keeping him from eating. Though I can tell he isn't really interested in food anyway right now. He did try twice, but his mouth isn't working for him. Could a tumor cause his lips to swell up?
 
#8 ·
I have a fish with a tumor that sounds like what yours might have but it doesn't cause swelling elsewhere. I'll give you a couple picture links to look at for comparison.

To me yours sounds like a swelling or trauma of some kind under the skin. I don't know what could cause that. Is it possible he got caught or stuck somewhere?

Whiskey's tumor in the beginning
Whiskey's tumor now
 
#9 ·
Well, his space is pretty stick-proof. Maybe he tried to jump and hit the lid? That's reaching, though. I can't think of any other way he could have hurt himself. Not that it isn't true, and I won't discount it.

Are you in agreement with JKfish. Change half the water and give it time? Stop the salt and medicine?
 
#10 ·
Fungus usually presents as fuzz, not swelling, so look for that. Columnaris is the something that affects that area of a fish. I've also heard of something called fibroma which affects lips but I thought that was an angel fish thing. I think it's a virus.

Try PM'ing Oldfishlady or Adastra. They both know a lot about fish diseases and could maybe help where we could not.

I would stop with meds and salt, until you're sure what you're treating for.
 
#11 ·
Pics would be helpful :)
 
#12 ·
Ok...i just tried to take more pictures and I just can't get a good one. Old camera probably. However, like I said I would do, I changed half the water with only adding water conditioner. At the same time, things have changed some. It seems the lump has gone down just a little and the lips look a little smaller.

Now the bad news. It looks like one side of his face is kind of rotting off. Best way I can describe it. Where that eye is, there is fairly bad popeye. He is most definately in very bad shape. Is it fungus or bacteria? Is it something specific to deal with?

Does this new info help any? Do I dose him again with the Jungle Fungus Clear? I feel something should be done now and wonder if I should have kept the medicine in there. But like I said, I can re-dose. I have read good things about the medicine for various things. This is bad.
 
#13 ·
What? Did it really develop that fast?!

THe only thing I know of that attacks a fish that quickly is the most aggressive form of columnaris... but I really have little idea what it could be, I would definitely try to get hold of Adastra or OldFishLady.
 
#14 ·
Beavis is still alive this morning and I'm happy about that and sad about that at the same time. I know he's suffering and I hate to watch it, but I want to still have hope. If he ain't gonna make it through, I would rather it just be done. But, we can't predict can we?

He is staying at the surface of the water for the most part. He still, of course, won't eat anything. I did decide to re-dose last night with the Jungle stuff, on the assumption that this is bacterial. My best guess with all my research is columnaris. I want to get better meds, but I already started this stuff and I don't want to mix. I think that might do more harm than good. Correct me if I'm wrong about that and that I should be getting something else.

I finally got a halfway decent picture of him that I'm posting. Thanks everyone for taking concern with this. I did message one of the experts, but I haven't heard back. I will still appreciate any input. Check the picture. It shows the side that's bad and with the popeye. You can't make out the lump with raised scales on his head, but it's still there.
 

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#15 ·
I would get him in a smaller QT container, add aquarium salt 3tsp/gal and add a airstone, lower the water temp to 76F, lower the water level by half so he doesn't have to struggle to get to air, turn off the lights, no food for now
Slowly add the salt over about 2 hours-start at 1tsp/gal and increase up to 3tsp/gal
The bad bacteria hates salt, water movement, oxygenation or low water temp....so you need to create an environment the the bacteria will not thrive in yet the fish can still survive until the fish immune response can take control.
You also may want to get a broad spectrum antibiotic that covers both gram negative and gram positive bacteria-I don't use OTC antibiotic so I can't recommend anything
If this is flexibacter columnaris-
Erosion of the mouth is a common symptom of Flex.
Other things it could be is a parasite with a secondary infection
 
#16 ·
Thank you. So you're thinking, don't give the medicine already in there a chance to work? I was thinking maybe three more days to see if it does something and then move on to other if needed. Is that bad thinking? Just want to see how you feel about that.

Sounds like you do kinda think it's columnaris. At least I finally have an idea what I might be dealing with. Thanks again!
 
#17 ·
I don't know anything about the medication/products you are using...what is in it?

Flexibacter is always in our tank waiting for the right condition to infect the fish-when the fish is compromised in some way they become stressed setting them up for the infection-open wounds, poor water quality, sudden high temp are big causes-best treatment is to make the water so that this bacteria can't thrive in great numbers and in turn making the environment more suited for the fish.
 
#18 ·
Well, it has these three active ingredients - Nitrofurazone, Furazolidone, Pnotassium Dichromate. I have heard more good things on the web than bad about it..

I really don't know what compromised his immune system. I have always been very careful about keeping his tank good and clean. Testing and all that. I can say that just the night before this happened, I fed him Hikari frozen boodworms out of a somewhat newly opened packet. I think I had feed him from the new pack maybe three times before that. Contaminated maybe? I did throw the stuff out.
 
#19 ·
If you have started that medication I would complete the course as per the direction
I didn't catch what the water temp was-but I would think about keeping it on the low end of normal during the treatment-76F range
Sometimes what can trigger these type of problems- is sudden water temp changes and/or pH/nitrate swings that stress the fish and boost the bad bacteria.
 
#22 ·
I think he looks just a little bit better today. He seems to be moving around quite a bit more. I am still a little puzzled on one thing, so, just one more question.

If this is columnaris, what is with the lump with raised scales on his head that is still the same? It's not like a sore...just a lump. Kinda like we would look if we took a concusion right in the middle of our forehead. And the deformed lips....they are still about twice the size of normal. These were the very first signs that something was wrong. I still don't think I've nailed it down totally yet.
 
#24 ·
These things can be so difficult to watch--I've only had two personal experiences where fish have had very sudden changes to the appearance of their heads, and in both cases the fish died extremely quickly after presenting symptoms. It's definitely wise to keep dosing the JFE as per the instructions. Early termination of antibiotics can have serious consequences--to learn more about how antibiotics work and the risks involved, I suggest reading this article when you have time: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa084

I agree with OFL that this new infection is likely a secondary infection that was presented with a very grand opportunity once you stopped treatment with the antibiotic. Some bacteria become highly active around 80 degrees or so, so keeping the temperature lower, around 76 degrees, can be extremely helpful in some cases. If he continues to improve up to the end of the antibiotic treatment, it may be helpful to dose the water with methylene blue in order to discourage a secondary infection or parasite infestation during his recovery.

Epsom salt baths may help with the swelling on his face and the popeye, but if he is very ill, you might just want to add a smaller amount to the water he's in rather than do bath treatments. Make sure to examine the packaging for any warnings against using that medication with sulfates or sulfa drugs like Epsom salt, which is magnesium sulfate. I have no idea what caused the swelling in the face, and without palpating the lump (which no one but a veterinary professional should do) we don't know if it's some kind of abscess or blister or some kind of hard tissue growth--it's very hard to say what might have caused it.
 
#25 ·
I had a feeling that was the answer. And that probably spells doom for him. Simply because, if it is a tumor, it's affecting him badly. Not just the resulting disease, but worse still, it is somehow deforming his lips. The couple of times he has tried to eat, he has had a very hard time getting the food in his mouth. I guess he could starve, if nothing else does him in first. Very sad and frustrating.
 
#26 ·
If he stops eating completely and continues to show no sign of improvement over the next few days, you should consider euthanasia.
 
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