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Old 05-08-2012, 06:40 PM   #21 
jeffegg2
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Cool

Nice tank! I used to do rooted plants, however I didn't like the way that interferes with vacuming the gravel.... Now I go with java fern and java moss all the way. Just stick them to rocks and stuff and you just remove them when cleaning....


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Old 05-08-2012, 08:50 PM   #22 
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I have just a quick coment on the ammonia/plants issue, if you don't mind my interjection here. I feel it may be helpful to those unfamiliar with all this to clarify a bit. Olympia was referring to my comments elsewhere on not adding ammonia into a tank with live plants, as I think there is a real risk.

All that NO3113 says about plants/ammonia is quite true. But adding a toxic substance to an aquarium without real need is a risk in my view. Without live plants, one needs a source of ammonia and this is often advised--though I myself would never do it no matter what, but that's just me. But when live plants are in the tank, one does have to be careful as ammonia is highly toxic to all life forms. Plants will take up ammonia to a limit both as a nutrient (ammonium) and as a toxin and they have uses for that too.

There is no benefit to adding ammonia with live plants because the plants will easily take up the ammonia from fish and bacteria, and we do not want to encourage nitrifying bacteria with plants anyway. And other nutrients, especially CO2 in a new tank, will not be sufficient to balance anyway. However, at this point, I do note that NO3113 is adding carbon and presumably other nutrients, so that is a bit different. But in a more natural method, setting up the tank with fish and plants on day one is sufficient to prevent any "cycle" as such, at least one that is discernible.

On the Excel, this is another product I will not use. It is a chemical, it does (as NO3113 noted) decimate some plant species, and it has been known to kill fish if overdosed, all of which says to me that it is something that should not be added to a fish tank. Natural CO2 is more prevalent in a balanced natural planted tank than many realize.

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Old 05-08-2012, 09:18 PM   #23 
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I have just a quick coment on the ammonia/plants issue, if you don't mind my interjection here. I feel it may be helpful to those unfamiliar with all this to clarify a bit. Olympia was referring to my comments elsewhere on not adding ammonia into a tank with live plants, as I think there is a real risk.

All that NO3113 says about plants/ammonia is quite true. But adding a toxic substance to an aquarium without real need is a risk in my view. Without live plants, one needs a source of ammonia and this is often advised--though I myself would never do it no matter what, but that's just me. But when live plants are in the tank, one does have to be careful as ammonia is highly toxic to all life forms. Plants will take up ammonia to a limit both as a nutrient (ammonium) and as a toxin and they have uses for that too.

There is no benefit to adding ammonia with live plants because the plants will easily take up the ammonia from fish and bacteria, and we do not want to encourage nitrifying bacteria with plants anyway. And other nutrients, especially CO2 in a new tank, will not be sufficient to balance anyway. However, at this point, I do note that NO3113 is adding carbon and presumably other nutrients, so that is a bit different. But in a more natural method, setting up the tank with fish and plants on day one is sufficient to prevent any "cycle" as such, at least one that is discernible.

On the Excel, this is another product I will not use. It is a chemical, it does (as NO3113 noted) decimate some plant species, and it has been known to kill fish if overdosed, all of which says to me that it is something that should not be added to a fish tank. Natural CO2 is more prevalent in a balanced natural planted tank than many realize.

Byron.
Thank you Byron,

I absolutely agree and at no point in my posts did I make mention that overdosing is impossible. Infact it's quite the opposite - it is incredibly easy to overdose.. so careful calculations on dossages of anything you add to your tank, be is water conditioner, plant ferts, or even CO2 (DIY or Pressurized system) can throw things out of balance and cause chaos.

The ammonia in no way is meant to be used as a ferilizer for the tank other than shuttling along a bacterial colony for the Nitrogen cycle - it's not being used as plant fert - though plants do take up anything with Nitrogen in them for their biological cycles. Just like sugar is okay for us to eat, eating too much can cause damage/sickness.

And there is no way I would ever place any of my fauna into the tank in those conditions.

Overall, to each their own... How you or anyone decide to set up your tank is ultimately at personal discretion. Part of the process is doing the research and using that to trial and error things...

You may not agree that I've not just plopped my fish into a planted tank for a fish in cycle, or that I didn't use fishfood... I'm okay with that.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:46 PM   #24 
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I AM INSTANTLY JEALOUS. (no seriously) ;_;

I've been dying for a rimless tank for a while to practice aquascaping with, but alas my current abode will not allow for another tank.

I hope you update pictures on this thread as it grows! I subscribed XD
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Old 05-08-2012, 11:48 PM   #25 
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Just be careful of what I assume is HC at the front of your tank. It has been known to melt due to elevated ammonia levels.
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:14 AM   #26 
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The ammonia in no way is meant to be used as a ferilizer for the tank other than shuttling along a bacterial colony for the Nitrogen cycle - it's not being used as plant fert - though plants do take up anything with Nitrogen in them for their biological cycles.

You may not agree that I've not just plopped my fish into a planted tank for a fish in cycle, or that I didn't use fishfood... I'm okay with that.
I seem to have been misunderstood, I do not do "cycles" period, because with live plants there is no "cycle" as most aquarists understand the term. You do not want to encourage the nitrogen cycle because it is simply competing with the plants. Planting a tank well and adding a few fish on the first day is completely harmless to the fish. The plants (if they are fast-growing) will grab nearly all the ammonia the fish can expel, so there is no need for adding ammonia to "cycle."

Now, the nitrifying bacteria will still develop, but slowly, and it will not be discernable to us with our aquarium test kits. Ammonia and nitrite will be zero from day one with sufficient plants. This is why I was saying that adding any form of ammonia is unnecessary, be it fish food or ammonia or shrimp. The plants handle this and the fish are safe.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:39 PM   #27 
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I seem to have been misunderstood, I do not do "cycles" period, because with live plants there is no "cycle" as most aquarists understand the term. You do not want to encourage the nitrogen cycle because it is simply competing with the plants. Planting a tank well and adding a few fish on the first day is completely harmless to the fish. The plants (if they are fast-growing) will grab nearly all the ammonia the fish can expel, so there is no need for adding ammonia to "cycle."

Now, the nitrifying bacteria will still develop, but slowly, and it will not be discernable to us with our aquarium test kits. Ammonia and nitrite will be zero from day one with sufficient plants. This is why I was saying that adding any form of ammonia is unnecessary, be it fish food or ammonia or shrimp. The plants handle this and the fish are safe.
This is where we disagree... and to be honest I do not consider my tank heavily planted - I would say moderately.. it's got more than the average single or dual plant, but for it's size I don't feel it's heavily planted. I look forward to adding more plants as I get them and considering it's a jungle style scape project, the more growth the better in the end.

Perhaps a miss communication on my part... But once again, I am keeping my course and seeing results. (just had a nitrite spike). Consider that ADA's New Amazonia Aqua Soil and many other aqua plant soils are seeded with ammonia to help kickstart things.

@bahamut285 It would be better to subscribe to the blog link I posted as I'm more inclined to keep updates there.
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:04 PM   #28 
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@N03113: Okay, will do! Thank you :)
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:30 PM   #29 
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This is where we disagree... and to be honest I do not consider my tank heavily planted - I would say moderately.. it's got more than the average single or dual plant, but for it's size I don't feel it's heavily planted. I look forward to adding more plants as I get them and considering it's a jungle style scape project, the more growth the better in the end.

Perhaps a miss communication on my part... But once again, I am keeping my course and seeing results. (just had a nitrite spike). Consider that ADA's New Amazonia Aqua Soil and many other aqua plant soils are seeded with ammonia to help kickstart things.

@bahamut285 It would be better to subscribe to the blog link I posted as I'm more inclined to keep updates there.
Do we disagree on the method (which is fine), or do we disagree on the scientific fact I set out?

Each of us is free to do our own method, but as other less-experienced (such as beginning) planted tank aquarists will make assumptions from what they read, the facts need to be clear.
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:58 PM   #30 
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Do we disagree on the method (which is fine), or do we disagree on the scientific fact I set out?

Each of us is free to do our own method, but as other less-experienced (such as beginning) planted tank aquarists will make assumptions from what they read, the facts need to be clear.
We disagree on method.
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