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Old 10-05-2012, 04:10 PM   #11 
shellieca
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My personal opinion applies to all breeding, it should ONLY be done to better the breed & for no other reason. Even that to me is questionable since there is such an overpopulation of most creatures, especially dogs & cats. Fish on the other hand tend to be viewed differently since they are not "overpopulating" & over crowding the rescue organizations. Just my quick two cents.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:27 PM   #12 
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There will never be shelters dedicated to taking in unwanted, poorly bred or mongrel fish.

I couldn't give one flying farkle for conformation of a FISH.

I just want it pretty.
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:40 PM   #13 
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Originally Posted by shellieca View Post
My personal opinion applies to all breeding, it should ONLY be done to better the breed & for no other reason. Even that to me is questionable since there is such an overpopulation of most creatures, especially dogs & cats. Fish on the other hand tend to be viewed differently since they are not "overpopulating" & over crowding the rescue organizations. Just my quick two cents.
+1million...can I do that?

Being that I was in the Arabian horse breeding industry with my family as well as Dobermans with my father and manx cats with my grandmother breeding is an artform. It's not a thing of profit. We lost TONES of money trying to breed the perfect Arabina Horse, perfect Doberman Pincher, perfect Manx cat, all show animals, all in the quest to make that perfect conformation, personality, and health. Fish should be treated the same way. One day I intend to breed mice, compared to my other family members yes it's a small scale but when I breed mice it won't be for money or because I want cute babies. It will be because I want beautiful mice free from cancer and other common ailments in mice, with great temperaments, great quality, and even if I won't show my mice I want people who do show mice to consider my stock show quality. All the mice who don't fit breeding quality will be pets (males neutered to prevent people wanting pets to ever breed them for 'fun'.) I think this view is just the same, if you are not helping the species you are hurting it.
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:49 PM   #14 
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No one breeds fish for health besides fighters though. Show fish are being inbred till the cows come home.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:43 PM   #15 
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I totally know the feeling, the same was happening with show mice but people stopped buying those bloodlines because they were sickly and what is the point of a show mouse if it will be too sick to win awards? Cancer lumps and physical mutations and all. So now inbreeding has greatly decreased which is why I am actually going to buy a lot of my stock from France, UK, and Sweeden where they inbreed less (plus genetic diversity) I would hope betta breeders will catch onto that. You can have beautiful fish and not constantly breed back into the line. You can also get healthier fish that way as well with longer life spans.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:47 PM   #16 
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It's easier if they die young I think.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:48 PM   #17 
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Very valid points, everyone!

If I were ever to breed any animal, it would be with the goal of ethically producing an animal with extraordinary health and beauty. Of course, my opinions of breeding other species would carry over and I would only choose animals that had been proven to be of quality and health.
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:22 PM   #18 
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The Betta either meets standards or it doesn't-You won't find a perfect Betta without a fault of some type or another and this is what keeps us breeding.
Faults can vary from minor, major to DQ. (disqualified)

You can either start with known or unknown genetics-but you will still end up with the same thing....A Betta that either meets or doesn't meet standards to some degree with faults.

Starting out with mystery genetic can sometimes take longer to get that near standard for showing if that is something that interest you. Keep good records just as you would do with known genetics.

Even with known genetic lines-you may not be able to sell/re-home them all. Plus, you can still get offspring that don't meet standards and/or have DQ standards.

Personally, I don't see a problem with a hobbyist spawning their pet shop Betta, mixing tail types, colors...etc.... as long as they have a plan. Rarely will a new hobbyist get more than 20-30 fry up to adults anyway-some do get lucky and get 100's on the first attempt and this is where culling comes in and this is what can be hard for some and this is what IMO muddies the water so-to-speak-The really poor quality regardless if they started off with known or unknown genetics that would meet the DQ standard that they continued to use for spawning-especially the deformed, birth defects...etc.....

It depends on your goals-if you want to show-get a pair that fits closest to the IBC standard you can find-that compliment each other-Otherwise get what you like-get creative-experiment-create a unique Betta-how do you think we got what we have today....Brave hobbyist that mixed color, tail types...etc.....The HM wasn't accepted in the beginning and look at it now.....

Get your feet wet-research-experiment-be creative and don't let the extremist dictate what you can and can't do....Have a plan and be responsible....with a plan to spend lots of time in the fish room....

Most of all...have fun and enjoy the hobby....
I love this.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:17 AM   #19 
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The 2 fish I got from a breeder were bred from petstore fish. At least the father was from Petco. I'm not sure about the mother. We were led to believe in the past (or at least I was) that the IBC frowns on petstore fish being bred but you can breed them and show the offspring as long as they meet the standards.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:33 AM   #20 
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I'm just curious to know if the same is true of fish? Does anyone have any business breeding a fish that does not meet the "breed standard" in color, form, etc.?

In breeding a fish that couldn't win a show, aren't we really just muddying the genetic pool of these animals?
It depends on your definition of standards. If you're using IBC standard, then there are tons of mutts out there. But then again are the IBC standards actually BETTER for the species? Are show winners better than non show bettas? Or are they better for humans? ....... Compare the natural PK/fighter to modern PK. Compare the long fins ..... are today's breed better?

Nowadays you have tons of deformities .... caused by the "betterment" of the breed .... is this better for the species? If such "betterment" wasn't exploited (namely DT and Rose) there wouldn't be such deformities or at least not as bad as we know them now. Further are their immune systems more .... resistant (?) or are they weaker than ever? Are these better conditions?

IMO the important thing is having a plan and a goal. Research, research, and more research - understand as much as you can about them. Only then can one say he/she is breeding for the betterment of the species. Otherwise (IMO) the breeder is only breeding for the heck of it.

Since most begin with little knowledge and work themselves through as they gain experience, I have nothing against breeding non show fish - whether to achieve show quality or mere pets. As long as they are responsible for what they create.

I know nothing about dog breeding and can't compare the two species. But I know that Dobermans were created by mix breeding several types of dogs...... is that justified? Again, IMO as long as the breeder is responsible for what he creates.
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