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Old 10-23-2012, 05:26 PM   #21 
LittleBettaFish
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No, Betta pugnax comes under the Pugnax complex. The splendens complex includes splendens, imbellis, smaragdina, mahachai (I'm pretty sure this gets included now) and it looks like Betta stiktos is also in there.

Wikipedia has the species listed by their complex group. As you can see there are a LOT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betta
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:31 PM   #22 
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B.Pugnaz is one of the king betta theories and different genus can hybridized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:39 PM   #23 
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I would find it extremely unlikely that someone could successfully spawn a pugnax with a splendens as their spawning methods are completely different. If you have ever watched a mouthbrooding betta spawn it is very dissimilar to how splendens and other bubblenesters spawn.

I also doubt that any eggs would be viable as they are separate species that are not even within the same complex. Also usually the offspring of hybrids are sterile themselves such as occurs when you cross donkeys with horses to get mules.

Imbellis to splendens only works as their spawning methods are essentially identical and they are very closely related coming from within the same complex.

Also that does not mean Betta pugnax comes under the same complex name as Betta splendens. It belongs to its own complex due to appearance and spawning behaviour. Betta pugnax is also so completely different looking to splendens it would take several generations to get a splendens looking appearance and then you would probably end up with smaller sized fish once again.

I believe king/giant bettas were selectively bred for size, and knowing how many fish are produced on the big betta farms in Thailand and Indonesia etc. in a year it would not take long to solidify a particular trait. Just look at the larger pectorals they breed for now. That wasn't the result of outcrossing with a wild species of betta.
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:49 PM   #24 
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It is possible plus King bettas are more aggressive and less hardy sorry Betta Raja got my species mixed up.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:03 PM   #25 
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That doesn't make sense. Wild bettas tend to be less aggressive and more hardy than the completely inbred splendens.

Also Betta raja are from the same complex as pugnax so essentially the same breeding methods. Ergo, they would also be very unlikely candidates to cross with splendens.

So how is it possible for a mouthbrooder and a bubblenester to spawn? This is the crux of the issue. With mouthbrooders the female spits the eggs into the male's mouth and he then proceeds to carry them for a couple of weeks until they hatch. Therefore, if you used a male splendens he would be trying to put the eggs up in a nest, and if you had a male mouthbrooder, he would be trying to carry the eggs around in his mouth.

I think the confusion comes from the translation of 'raja' as king. So people are assuming that Betta raja are or played some part in the creation of giant and king bettas.

Here is a thread that Indjo posted about the creation of giant bettas

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=99066
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:09 PM   #26 
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Do they ever have the eggs out of there mouth the betta lass the egg and wild splendens are adapted to different water qualities and have not been bred for aggression for hundreds of years.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:32 PM   #27 
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Betta Mahachai has actually been around for a long time but biologists didnt know if it was a hybrid so the betta hadnt been officially classified. Betta mahachai is in the splendens complex so it can breed with other splendens and has done so. Obtaining mahachai is quite easy if you know where to look. There are normally some for sale on Aquabid. They are threatend in the wild but most wild bettas are do to human encroachment and hybridization. Betta stikos is another splenden which is very hard to find and has even been red listed.

Last edited by PitGurl; 10-23-2012 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:46 PM   #28 
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It's weird. We had Betta stiktos here on the wholesale list not that long ago. The two main wholesalers for aquariums in Australia here seem to get in a lot of wild betta species which is great for the hobbyist.

I wonder if it is because we are so much closer to Asia here than you are in America.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:02 PM   #29 
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There is a pair of Stikos on AB right now. I've seen them listed one other time. I actually considered buying a pair but was worried about the legality of buying a red listed species. I'd hate to have them confiscated by customs and fined $10,000 or something crazy.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:06 PM   #30 
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Well I own Betta livida and Betta persephone and they are red-listed as well. So if they are aquarium bred it should be fine.

Here are the stiktos being advertised by the seller I get 99% of my wilds from/through

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dfla5r8O9M&feature=plcp
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