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Old 10-26-2012, 03:23 PM   #31 
Sivan
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Originally Posted by bahamut285 View Post

The main differences between animal and human brains is mainly the SIZE of various structures, or the absence of structures. Other than that they are the same in terms of function.

For example (I apologize for small image size):


In this image above, the functional structures are colour coded.

The larger pituitary gland (displayed in green) in ANIMALS in relation to humans gives rise to their end-result desire to breed and pass on their genes.

The larger olfactory bulb (displayed in yellow) in ANIMALS in relation to humans is also much larger due to their reliance on their sense of smell. Humans and carnivores are more likely to use a combination of VISION and smell, but due to our eventual sentience and technology, our olfactory senses have been diminished. In aquatic species, olfactory senses tend to be more chemical because you can't exactly "smell" water the way we smell a freshly baked pie (also chemical but different).

The cerebrum and cerebellum (beige and red) are mainly for voluntary movements like swimming, flying, hopping around, walking, eating, etc. Generally the same sizes in most animals. The human cerebellum is larger compared to most animals because it facilitates DELICATE movements such as our fingers and lips to communicate.

Unfortunately I don't really have any scholarly articles that are written in layman's terms (frankly I find some of them confusing as well) but since the brain is a largely studied organ, a few google searches will help you find all sorts of physical, chemical, and morphological articles concerning its functions.



Generally scientists rank overall "intelligence" using comparative brain-body size. So let's say that our brain is around 10% of our body mass. Anything similar in intelligence (so dolphins, elephants, chimpanzees) will have a relative brain-body mass around 10%.

As somebody pointed out, the Mormyriade uses this extra brain size to understand complicated electrical signals as a primitive form of communication
LOVE the chart! Ok, so what parts of the brain are in control of problem solving and emotion? To what extent can this be measures? Dolphins are extremely smart and self-aware but do they have the ability to feel in the way we as humans interpret feeling emotions? Betta fish do not have the brain function to feel what we interpret to be emotions. Why? Is it merely the size or functionality of the brain? I would like to look into that.

Are there any good charts/pictures/visual aids on betta brain functions? Different fish species have different brains and capabilities, so even fish that are similar in brain abilities would be interesting to examine.

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Originally Posted by SpookyTooth
On the topic of betta behaviour, would you mind if I brought up a topic about flaring, Sivan? I'll post the query below and am sorry if it seems I am hijacking your post, I'm just intrigued.
Feel free. I think this is interesting as well.
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:22 PM   #32 
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LOVE the chart! Ok, so what parts of the brain are in control of problem solving and emotion?
Problem solving is generally in the cortex area (large orange part). Emotion is in the Hippocampus and Amydgala (not shown on the picture) as well as some parts of the cortex (orange part). It is a very complicated pathway that goes all over our brain depending on stimuli (visual, auditory, etc.)

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To what extent can this be measures? Dolphins are extremely smart and self-aware but do they have the ability to feel in the way we as humans interpret feeling emotions?
It can't really be measured empirically, it is moreso the existence of the required functional parts. Dolphins do have hippocampi and most higher-mammals do. The interpretation between themselves and the interpretation of THEIR emotions by humans are vastly different. Let's say for example, in our culture, showing love is displayed by a hug. There may be a different culture in which say, slapping somebody is a display of affection. (Just an example). You would have to work very intimately with a certain species to determine what their affection cues are (generally not really scientific, more sociology), and/or use an MRI to determine brain activity.

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Betta fish do not have the brain function to feel what we interpret to be emotions. Why? Is it merely the size or functionality of the brain? I would like to look into that.
Betta fish and non-higher animals lack the brain function simply because they are not as complex as humans and other such animals. Their needs for living are purely survival.



The chart above is Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Most animals (insects, most fish, reptiles, birds, etc.) only require the bottom two sections, perhaps not even the bottom two (just the bottom). For example insects, they essentially live to reproduce and perhaps perform other functions such as pollinating (helping reproduce) plants. Meanwhile Elephants on the other hand have been seen to show compassion for the deceased and will mourn. Elephants and humans have a very intricate social structure, which is the result of the evolution of our amygdala and hippocampus.

Regarding schooling and shoaling fish, they merely stick together for safety in numbers, not because it's their family. They just hope somebody near the outside of the mass gets eaten instead of them.

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Are there any good charts/pictures/visual aids on betta brain functions? Different fish species have different brains and capabilities, so even fish that are similar in brain abilities would be interesting to examine.
Unfortunately as I mentioned before, anything betta specific will be extremely difficult to find. Most of the studies I see on google scholar are amateur articles done by Masters or PhD students on aggression. Ichthyology (as far as I know) isn't really a go-to field in comparison to human medicine and engineering. Also most ichthyology is eventually human-centric as well (fisheries and the like)

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Old 10-26-2012, 04:32 PM   #33 
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Vertebrates feel pain invertebrates as far as we know don't feel pain.
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Old 10-27-2012, 04:23 AM   #34 
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Fascinating thread. By way of subscribing, I'd like to make two observations of minor import.

Birds, known for their eyesight, seem to possess an optic lobe of about the same relative size as fish with their considerably less sophisticated eyes. As a bird person, I find this amazing. Thanks for the chart, Bahamut.

When a Betta flares, it's not using its gills. Perhaps this contributes to it's ..ummm hypoxia (?) and lowered endurance in flare mode.
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Old 10-27-2012, 06:13 AM   #35 
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Off topic and snarky posts removed from this thread. If anyone feels that a post was removed and shouldn't have been, feel free to pm me.

I'm glad to see it's back on topic. Let's keep it that way please.
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Old 10-27-2012, 08:58 AM   #36 
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What did it say?
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Old 10-27-2012, 12:05 PM   #37 
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Bahamut, you have excellent resources! Would you mind giving me the original sources of those charts? I would love to use them in the future but want the original sources. I think I will take what you have taught me and see if I can find anything similar to look into. Unfortunately, for the next few days I am not going to have a lot of time for research as I normally would due to other obligations. It is a busy time of the year for me but I will find something to contribute!
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Old 10-27-2012, 12:35 PM   #38 
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Brain Comparisons: http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...ain/brain3.htm

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow&...archy_of_needs

Other sources are just from the collaborated knowledge from school over the many years of studying. You could probably find a lot of it through google though
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Old 10-27-2012, 01:40 PM   #39 
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Female Bettas form hierarchies like humans and can live with enough.
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:09 AM   #40 
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Different definition of hierarchy I'm using :P
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