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Old 11-28-2012, 05:18 AM   #21 
Freyja
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Chuckee if one were to look at the foster care system, parental responsibility might then seem more extraordinary lol.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:04 AM   #22 
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it seems to me that there is more to heroism than "defying one's natural state"
that seems somewhat limiting. War Heroes are are within their natural state. perhaps it has something to do with excellence beyond expectation.

as for the issue of pay....not a can of worms I feel like opening so I will just say that generally speaking unless you are over paid you are underpaid. and the large majority of people are underpaid when in comparison to those over paid. and I listed those professions because I personally know people in each one and know for a fact their pay is not proportionate to their work or the need for them by society.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:42 PM   #23 
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a man can save five total strangers by sacrificing his own life. if he chooses not to, does this make him inherently evil? what if that number was fifty? two hundred? two million? if choosing your own life over those of strangers is unequivocally an "evil" choice, why does society celebrate supposed "heroes" rather than just acknowledge that they performed their civic duty as should be expected? and if it is the case that performing said heroic act at the expense of a human life is a societal expectation, why are people still fighting against the research and treatment use of embryonic stem cells? why can't an aborted fetus (which would have been aborted anyway, stem cells or no stem cells) mean hope and promise for those afflicted with countless debilitating and horrifying dieases?
The highlighted part bugs me the most about opposition to stem cell research. Stem cell research is not a reason for abortion because abortions have happened for thousands of years. The only difference is that modern abortions are safer than throwing yourself down a flight of stairs with crossed fingers. Stem cell research doesn't promote abortion, because one batch of stem cells can be grown over and over again in cultures. A new fetus doesn't have to be aborted for each test. Some protestors make it sound like stem cell researchers steal fetuses from the wombs of women who want to carry their baby to full term.

I have no idea if my opinion will upset anyone, but this is how I look at stem cells harvested from aborted fetuses. Abortion does not nullify parenthood, it simply terminates a prenancy for the sake of the mother. I honestly believe that if parents can donate the organs of babies who die shortly after being born, then parents should also be able to donate the stem cells of fetuses that are aborted.

I think this way because I have a higher chance than usual of pregnancy complications and I'm not naive enough to believe living in a 1st world country makes me immune to miscarriages, stillbirths, or medically necessary abortions. I've never thought of abortion as a way to avoid becoming a mother because losing a fetus doesn't mean I wasn't going to have a child at the end of 40 weeks in a perfect world. If I can donate the lung of a baby I lose shortly after birth to save another baby, then I should be able to donate the stem cells of a baby I aborted to progress medicine for the sake of millions.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:30 PM   #24 
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I stated that caution because I have heard people make the argument. Granted it was a bandwagon and they were not well informed, but that is just the sort of thing I am anxious of.

Now as I have stated earlier, I am against abortion but, you have voiced valid concerns about medical complications. Those gave me pause for a long time and I ended up boiling it down to this:
if the fetus is a life (which I have asserted it is)
then in the case of of medical complications it is kill it or the mother might die.
and I can't agree with a decision with those odds, a 100% the baby will die vs. some likelihood that medical science can never be certain of? I gotta go with the latter. Though you have my sympathies, as I literately just said you ought to possibly risk your life if you were to get pregnant. I wouldn't necessarily blame you if you went with the abortion in your case, but nor can I support you decision. Nor can I blame you if this upsets you and that was not the intent it is just a possibility I see.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:58 PM   #25 
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I stated that caution because I have heard people make the argument. Granted it was a bandwagon and they were not well informed, but that is just the sort of thing I am anxious of.

Now as I have stated earlier, I am against abortion but, you have voiced valid concerns about medical complications. Those gave me pause for a long time and I ended up boiling it down to this:
if the fetus is a life (which I have asserted it is)
then in the case of of medical complications it is kill it or the mother might die.
and I can't agree with a decision with those odds, a 100% the baby will die vs. some likelihood that medical science can never be certain of? I gotta go with the latter. Though you have my sympathies, as I literately just said you ought to possibly risk your life if you were to get pregnant. I wouldn't necessarily blame you if you went with the abortion in your case, but nor can I support you decision. Nor can I blame you if this upsets you and that was not the intent it is just a possibility I see.
so are you saying that (by your morals) a woman with PCOS or any other condition that could cause pregnancy to be fatal should be denied for LIFE the possibility of a healthy adult relationship? that's a lot to ask of someone who might not feel the way you do about a maybe-maybe-not thing that stands a good chance of killing her.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:58 PM   #26 
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well abortion WILL take a life and the pregnancy is only a POSSIBILITY of being fatal.

yes, it is a lot to ask of a person, but such is life. what is right is not always fair or easy. I feel that I must support the option that has the greatest potential for life and protects the defenseless.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:07 PM   #27 
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i guess what people consider "life" will always be the deciding variable in these discussions, and that's one of those values that's usually so firmly entrenched in someone that no amount of debating will change it.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:27 PM   #28 
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aye, the changing of that opinion is a rare thing. I think I have seen it once or twice MAYBE.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:55 AM   #29 
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Again it boils down to self-preservation and rational selfishness. I myself don't understand women who choose to get pregnant, knowing said pregnancy has a real chance of being fatal to her. Where does that leave her widower and her baby, who now has no mother? However, just because I don't understand it doesn't mean I get to judge, not until I've been in that woman's shoes. Stupid Steel Magnolias! I can only share my opinion and not impose my beliefs on anyone else, which is where I think many people go wrong.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:24 AM   #30 
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Originally Posted by PolarBearDog View Post
I stated that caution because I have heard people make the argument. Granted it was a bandwagon and they were not well informed, but that is just the sort of thing I am anxious of.

Now as I have stated earlier, I am against abortion but, you have voiced valid concerns about medical complications. Those gave me pause for a long time and I ended up boiling it down to this:
if the fetus is a life (which I have asserted it is)
then in the case of of medical complications it is kill it or the mother might die.
and I can't agree with a decision with those odds, a 100% the baby will die vs. some likelihood that medical science can never be certain of? I gotta go with the latter. Though you have my sympathies, as I literately just said you ought to possibly risk your life if you were to get pregnant. I wouldn't necessarily blame you if you went with the abortion in your case, but nor can I support you decision. Nor can I blame you if this upsets you and that was not the intent it is just a possibility I see.
I'm sorry I should have been clearer.

There are pregnancies that are complicated which leads to a higher risk to the mother's life than usual. Like, amniotic fluid starts to like out early or the cervix doesn't close as well as it should. Those are problems that threaten both fetus and mother because it could possibly lead to miscarriage or infection. You can abort to pre-emptively save yourlife and try again for a healthier and safer pregnancyor you can keep going with crossfingers. That decision is part of the reason most GYNs will tell women not to share the news of a pregnancy until at least week 12. It is dangerous for a woman to continue a pregnancy that threatens her life and she shouldn't feel pressured to continue by family and friends. In that case the doctors could be wrong and the woman aborts a fetus that would have been born a healthy baby. (this is what I'm worried about )

There are also pregnancies that are fatal to the mother no matter what. Like when the fertilized egg attaches to the fillopian tubes instead of the uterus. Leaving the fertilized egg there instead of removing it kills both mother and child. A fetus will never develop into a full baby outside thte womb and the mother won't survive a pregnancy that is happening outside her womb. Even if the fetus is "alive" at that point, it has no future but the mother does. There are also times when the pregnancy isn't properly miscarried and a medical abortion is needed before the mother dies from the miscarriage. Sometimes waiting for the fetual heartbeat to stop doesn't give doctors enough time to save the mother from the failed miscarriage. Those are just two perticular instance where the fetus and mother die together 100% of the time without an abortion but the mother can be saved by aborting the fetus even if it is still "alive" at the time. (This is what blindsides families because these complications come out of nowhere )

I understand your point of view and I am not trying to change your mind in any way. I just wanted to add a bit more background to what I meant. When I said "abort or the mother dies" I literally meant "abort or the mother dies and a fetus can't develop to full term inside a corpse." I wasn't trying to be overly vague. I just felt this thread wasn't the best place to be my usual blunt self.
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