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Old 01-01-2013, 01:02 AM   #1 
Desensitizer
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Taking care of gf's betta,minor popeye and twitchy movement

Before today this fish has been in a smallish 1/2 to 1/3 gallon cointainer with too much food that sat on top then separated then sunk, was cleaned 100% weekly in a stressful manner (I had no instruction was moving it between multiple cups in an attempt to insure water was completely new, hadnt paid attention to temperature until I saw betta swimming in circles over and over, so stressful movement and temperature changes as I attempted to stabiliize temperature to what I felt was ok using finger to test and adding cold/hot water sometimes with fish inside in short periods, but noticing behavior difference when stressed and learning about how to properly do things and bettas in general brought me closer to fish and inspired me to learn and buy current setup I have)
Before you freak out about me not caring about animals, I care about them soooooooooooo much I just had zero knowledge on how to do fish care and had no idea how to do things but ive spent 30+ hours researching to get him the best home I can.
Also my gf has transported him all over the place in small containers and never used heaters and had inconsistence cleaning of water and hes been fine so this guy is a strong survivor)

Housing
What size is your tank? 10 gallon with ~8 gallons filled
What temperature is your tank? Measured his unheated at 70 and dialed it up by 1 degree/hour in his new heated slowly to 80
Does your tank have a filter? No
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?no
Is your tank heated?yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? None

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Pellets, brought him bloodworms to reward his patience with my learning how to make his life awesome
How often do you feed your betta fish? Had been daily pellets, now will be 1 pellet/day

Maintenance
How often do you perform a water change? New water today in new tank ill do as advised
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? All
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Prime, (Complete and concentrated conditioner for fresh and salt water removes chlorine, chloramine, and ammoniaDetoxifies nitrite and nitrate and provides a protective slime coat for your fishUse at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water)

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? No If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity:

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed?
How has your betta fish's behavior changed?He has been wonky. When I got him prepped (had learned, so I got him into a glass cup with old water, let him sit there but he started to swim like crazy maybe because of more stressful changes prior when I wasnt as calm reminding him to anticipate stress (i feel like hes more skittish when cupped than before because I wasnt aware of how to handle), then cup held in tank for a bit to normalize temps, then he was still freaking a little, slowly added water from tank to cup while still holding in cup, eventually let him in as he calmed down but stress started up with frequent movements), he swam around, took things in, he started to swim around edges and also across the tank, seeming happy snd content, looking at wall, kinda jerky movements, after I used hand to remove most airbubbles from side cuz I thought they might stress still mainly focused on walls on tank fast movements jerky, after watching worried I noticed eyes did not match, one was a little larger and fully black didnt have white/clear ring around pupil
When did you start noticing the symptoms? Tonight
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? Turned heat up to 80* slowly
Does your fish have any history of being ill? He gets wigged when water changes, gf said he didnt eat for A few days after she drove him in car for 3 hrs in cup
How old is your fish (approximately)? No idea

I know he'll be ok cuz hes very resilient but ive gotten extremely emotionally attached as I cannot stand when I notice humans or animals emotionally upset so I want to work on that eye.

I have red solo cups I cut with scissors into 3 diff hiding/play structures. I had one I added yesterday he had for a lil over a day in his prior container so is it possible he ran into the sides of that where cutting occured? The tank will be stable and spacious so that wont happen in the new one but should I take out the cups that have cut edges (they are in no way jagged or sharp) do you guys think they pose risk?

I think he sees reflection and that might cause him to move all jerky and mainly be at edge of tank and stuff but he doesnt seem to puff gills out when doing it (but im not sure how well I understand how flaring works but I was under the impression that was part of it)

Last edited by Desensitizer; 01-01-2013 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:29 AM   #2 
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It's okay. You gotta learn sometime.

Sometimes fish freak when cupped. I find when the cups are see-through (clear) they freak *a lot* more. So I use opaque solo cups. Mine are green. Yours can be red :)

Umm.. I've got to the jerky part.. there's definitely something wrong there.. Either very severe shock or something's wrong with the water in the tank. How did you acclimate? This is how I do it:

Quote:
To do a water change, use a little cup like a plastic solo cup - this cup must be only for him and have never been used with soap or other chems. Scoop him up in this cup (keep him in the cup about 1/4 full of water - it doesn't need to be much because he won't be in it for long) and leave him in the cup while you change his water. To do the 50% use a turkey baster - dedicated only to him that has never seen soap or chems - and drag it through the gravel and try to suck as much of the poop out as possible, in addition to 50% of the water. Use a thermometer under the running tap to get it to be the same temp as the water that is normally in his tank. When the thermometer says the flowing tap is the right temp, fill back up his tank. At this point, add the conditioner (dose for how much water you change - if you change half the water you add half gallon worth of conditioner, If you do a 100% water change dose for the full gallon change). Float his plastic cup with him in it in the new water. Slowly add a couple tablespoons of the new water into his cup every 10 minutes for at least an hour. Finally, dump him in gently but try to get as little of the old cup water back into the tank as possible. When you do the weekly 100% you will do mostly the same thing except empty his tank fully and rinse everything in it very well under warm water but never use soaps or chemicals. Once it's fully cleaned/rinsed you can refill it and repeat the cup/acclimate phase.
You didn't clean anything with soap or chems did you? And you're using Prime? at 2 drops per gallon?

Can you share photos?

I wouldn't put cut solo cups in there, unless you bury the edges in the gravel.

What's he doing now?

He needs more than one pellet a day. What brand are you feeding? Feeding a blood worm as a treat once a week is fine.

We'll.. start there.. the eye is an infection. Look for Kanaplex by Seachem or Maracyn Plus or Furan 2. Also look for epsom salts - pure magnesium sulfate 100% no additives per ingredients label.

Last edited by callistra; 01-01-2013 at 01:33 AM.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:40 AM   #3 
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Mr fishy appears calmer. The light had been off for an hour to two, and I went down and checked and he was swimming contentedly. I dropped a pellet in, and he came and ate if. Breathing a heavy sight of relief. Both his eyes look ok, one might have been a little red. His two front fins have red on them, and his face to a little after have red spots. That seems bad. I think ive seen those b4, but I was pretty sure I didnt notice them while watching him the next 2 hours. I think im going to turn the lights off and leave as a means of saying "its time to chill everythings done" because its possible prior extended temperature adjustments have stressed him when ive been present and I think he needs to know definitively when its all over to calm him. Im going to use the nonclear cup idea, that seems obvious as a way to calm him during changes. I'll get photos tomorrow.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:49 AM   #4 
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Red spots on face? like open sores? I thought you said one eye was bigger than the other? and it sounded like maybe cloudy too.. photos would be really helpful.

I might not be around much tomorrow. Hopefully someone else will pop in.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:06 AM   #5 
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Originally Posted by callistra View Post
Red spots on face? like open sores? I thought you said one eye was bigger than the other? and it sounded like maybe cloudy too.. photos would be really helpful.

I might not be around much tomorrow. Hopefully someone else will pop in.
The red on face area was more splotches, and has lessened. His 2 front hanging down fins have red lines that look bloody. The one eye is still larger but seems to be more clear this morning. Im going to be doing the epsom salt treatment and change water every other day (its brand new and I want more than 24 hours in new container before even more environment change/stress.

Also, I have a heater set to 80-81 but parts of the tank are stuck at 71!
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:13 AM   #6 
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I think you need to slow down and let us help you. Please share photos. Your fish is being described in far worse shape than you seem to realize. The way you are describing him is needing meds desperately. What you are describing is septicemia and popeye, but I don't want to make assumptions and have it be his normal coloring... septicemia is not something to mess around with and it's something that requires quick and accurate attention. He may need Kanaplex by Seachem, or Maracyn Plus. Also Furan 2 has some potential to work and can be used alongside Kanaplex in bad cases - like septicemia. If it's just pop eye and normal coloring I'd do epsoms + Kanaplex or epsoms + Maracyn Plus. I wouldn't mix just for popeye.

The epsom salts must be pure magnesium sulfate 100% with no other dyes, fragrances or additives of any kind - check the ingredients label. You must predissolve them at a rate of 1 tsp per gallon before you add them to the tank he's in. You also need to add slowly over the course of an hour+ because they will drop your ph. If you have very soft water it could drop your ph a lot. If you move too quickly you could shock or even kill him.

What heater are you using? Your heater doesn't seem to be doing a good job. It may be defective or it may be inadequate for the size of your tank. You always want to give your heater a 24 hour test run before you subject your fish to it to make sure it will reach temp and hold temp without swings. You have a large tank so you need at least a 50w heater in there.. Also a 50w will only bring tank temp about 10 degrees above room temp, so if your house is very cold (like 60) it won't work either. When you acclimate to higher temps you have to actually let it get up to temp before you click it up another degree.. you can't just keep clicking up a degree per hour.. let it get to temp.. wait an hour.. click it up.. Make sense? A good heater would have had that tank heated up in under and hour though so something is wrong.

If you're going to do daily water changes, I'd reduce get him something smaller.. something like 2.5 gallons to make this much easier and faster, which is also good for him and not just you. I would leave him in the 10g while you get his new tank and heater adjusted properly and checked to make sure it's fully working. For this size you can use an adjustable 25w like a marineland visitherm or Jager would be great. Definitely give it a test run with one of those glass in tank thermometers with suction cups. Give it a test run.. let it get up to temp.. Usually I say wait 24 hours but in his case lets say like 5-6 hours of holding steady temp is good. Make sure it's holding temp, not just that it got up to temp, before slowly acclimating him - float an hour in the new tank adding a couple tablespoons of the new water to his cup every 10 minutes for an hour, at minimum.

Last edited by callistra; 01-01-2013 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:51 AM   #7 
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Originally Posted by callistra View Post
I think you need to slow down and let us help you. Please share photos. Your fish is being described in far worse shape than you seem to realize. The way you are describing him is needing meds desperately. What you are describing is septicemia and popeye, but I don't want to make assumptions and have it be his normal coloring... septicemia is not something to mess around with and it's something that requires quick and accurate attention. He may need Kanaplex by Seachem, or Maracyn Plus. Also Furan 2 has some potential to work and can be used alongside Kanaplex in bad cases - like septicemia. If it's just pop eye and normal coloring I'd do epsoms + Kanaplex or epsoms + Maracyn Plus. I wouldn't mix just for popeye.

The epsom salts must be pure magnesium sulfate 100% with no other dyes, fragrances or additives of any kind - check the ingredients label. You must predissolve them at a rate of 1 tsp per gallon before you add them to the tank he's in. You also need to add slowly over the course of an hour+ because they will drop your ph. If you have very soft water it could drop your ph a lot. If you move too quickly you could shock or even kill him.

What heater are you using? Your heater doesn't seem to be doing a good job. It may be defective or it may be inadequate for the size of your tank. You always want to give your heater a 24 hour test run before you subject your fish to it to make sure it will reach temp and hold temp without swings. You have a large tank so you need at least a 50w heater in there.. Also a 50w will only bring tank temp about 10 degrees above room temp, so if your house is very cold (like 60) it won't work either. When you acclimate to higher temps you have to actually let it get up to temp before you click it up another degree.. you can't just keep clicking up a degree per hour.. let it get to temp.. wait an hour.. click it up.. Make sense? A good heater would have had that tank heated up in under and hour though so something is wrong.

If you're going to do daily water changes, I'd reduce get him something smaller.. something like 2.5 gallons to make this much easier and faster, which is also good for him and not just you. I would leave him in the 10g while you get his new tank and heater adjusted properly and checked to make sure it's fully working. For this size you can use an adjustable 25w like a marineland visitherm or Jager would be great. Definitely give it a test run with one of those glass in tank thermometers with suction cups. Give it a test run.. let it get up to temp.. Usually I say wait 24 hours but in his case lets say like 5-6 hours of holding steady temp is good. Make sure it's holding temp, not just that it got up to temp, before slowly acclimating him - float an hour in the new tank adding a couple tablespoons of the new water to his cup every 10 minutes for an hour, at minimum.
What I would describe as jerky movement - http://s15.beta.photobucket.com/user...045C7.mp4.html





I'lll try to get a picture of his face. Its actually really minor, just 2 things on each side around gills, but they aren't that discolored at all. Now I'm worried he might have a bubble on one side on his tail, but I'm being a hypochondriac and need to observe him more.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:59 AM   #8 
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Hard to see the red without a light. The front around his mouth could look a lil messed up too its hard to tell. I think he freaks out and watches his reflection maybe.

Also the epson salt is magnesium sulfate USP 100%

Last edited by Desensitizer; 01-01-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:06 PM   #9 
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Should I dissolve 8 tsp of epsom in some water then add that (its about at 8 gallon level)
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:11 PM   #10 
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What you are describing as "jerky movements" is him seeing his reflection in the side of the tank and being freaked out by it- he thinks it's another betta come to attack him so he's going to get it first. You can help this by giving him more places to hide.. little caves and thing with soft non snagging surfaces and some good silk plants, particular up around the back and sides so he sees them and not himself. If he doesn't settle down or still seems upset by this you can wrap the sides and back of the tank in some non shiny/nonreflective paper. I have had the best luck with pieces with patterns.

The red on his fins is his normal coloring. I don't know about his face. If it's around his gills that may be ammonia or nitrite poisoning. Time and clean water would help that.

It looks like he's either taken a few good bites out of the tips of his tail or he's got a touch of fin rot.. can't tell based on photos. Again, good clean, warm, stable water should do the trick.

Knot in his tail would be like this? http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Anabantoi...%20sick....JPG Lymphocystis viral infection. Treatment is same.. just keep him stress free in good clean water with good quality nutrition. What brand pellet are you feeding? If it's fuzzy it's anothe r problem.

I see he's pale and kinda clamped.. but I see no signs of septecemia or other really advanced conditions.

I would get his water to be a stable temp between 78-79 degrees. In a 10 gallon you only need to alternate 50% and 100% water changes every other week. These water changes need to include a siphon to vaccum the gravel to get his poop out. And the 100% should be a thorough rinsing of the gravel. If you wanted to do something smaller you could increase water changes (100% weekly in a 5 gallon and 2 water changes a week in a 2.5 - one 50% and one 100%), but he doesn't really look like he needs that.. he looks and sounds like he needs some stability in his life more than anything. I would treat with epsom salts and kanaplex, or epoms and maracyn plus, or epsoms and furan 2 for 2 weeks for the popeye. During treatment I would do a 50% water change right before a new dose (follow directions on med bottle - full dose of meds and half dose of epsoms since they do not leave the water) and 100% water change at week's end. After that he won't need so much.

Last edited by callistra; 01-01-2013 at 12:15 PM.
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