Betta Fish Care  
Go Back   Betta Fish and Betta Fish Care > Breeding Betta Fish
Check out the eBook Betta Fish Care Made Easy
betta fish
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-09-2013, 08:07 AM   #21 
chardzard
Member
 
chardzard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Bridgtown Barbados
wat u say here is true 1 other thing i have notice is older males dont really flare as much as the young males do i have some spawns that have never seen any other fish but bettas so when they see any other they flare at once some of the people that buy bettas from me want to keep them with other fish so wat my nefew did teach me how to get them to live with other fish with out any problems they tend to learn a few tricks form other fish n i have some i keep for the guys who just want them by themselfs so for me my job is kinda of hard to find good bettas with no info on them so when i spawn a inported fish from a pet store it is all ways the ?? of wat is this i will get out of them so any fish that can out run them is good tank buddy to teach them to behave :)
chardzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 08:25 AM   #22 
Myates
Member
 
Myates's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
I have seen them "peacefully" co-exist (both sexes) in as small of tanks as 20 gallons by some breeders. But as indjo mentioned about not moving them.. it is hard to not move them - so in the time apart they can revert to aggression. Even females who were housed together and then shipped together will become aggressive in just the couple of days being shipped. Why I tend to see more peaceful co-existence in fish that breeders have rather than ones people purchase online or in stores.

What the OP was wanting you will find in most of the wilds - heartier and less aggressive.. normally they will posture and do some small fighting until one swims away, self preservation comes into play there, very little killing. So for healthier fish with shorter fins and not as aggressive with longer lives we basically have to scratch everything that has been done to them and just go with pure wilds. Except the splendens variety, as if you place a couple wild males together in a smaller tank they will fight still to a point and some will kill as they can easily feel trapped by the glass walls.

It's not truly bred out of mice as it is.. it's still common for them to kill one another often. I've kept rats and mice, ran a rescue for them years ago (about 8-9 yrs ago) and had dozens of each and kept them in cages, some as tall as 6ft and would find a mouse here and there eaten by another - even the females would do it. So I believe humans can't fully take out something that mother nature had put into animals. Why we can't keep lions as house cats, and why dogs can and do bite people out of the blue - these are animals and nothing we do will change that. Can we alter some of their behavior? Yeah, but generally through training and breeding specifics, but that is never a guarantee.
Can't blame breeders for not breeding peace into these fish.. not fair in my opinion. I've met dozens of breeders and each one care greatly on the health and well being of their fish and if they get some pretty fish then that is a bonus. Some like the aggression, some don't.. but temperament breeding has been tried and tried for many decades with little success.

So yeah, I would love to fill one of my large tanks with pretty pretty males and have them living peacefully, but I just don't think that these fish could ever be as peaceful that is needed so the everyday keeper can house them together. Can't guarantee your new puppy won't be a biter, or the kitten you got won't hiss and scratch you all the time as an adult. And we've been breeding them for hundreds of years, if not thousands.

Last edited by Myates; 01-09-2013 at 08:29 AM.
Myates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 09:24 AM   #23 
Sena Hansler
Member
 
Sena Hansler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CANADA
If I had a choice of breeding a super delicate betta VS a hardy, perhaps not show quality betta... Hardy all the way. That's what I breed anyways. I want to still breed quality, but my way. No super heavy finned bettas... Perhaps breed medium to short lengthed halfmoons. My crowntails are not 180 degree spread... But people here do not seem to mind. They are not showing, they are owning.
Sena Hansler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 09:48 AM   #24 
chardzard
Member
 
chardzard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Bridgtown Barbados
now that u say so 1 dont think they should try to bread for this supper fins too couse i have seen is when u cross the HM to a DT wat they dont tell u is the amount of waste fish u get just to get 1 supper looking fish wat u get is a lot of fish that r DT but r not even n u can sell them to nobody unless u sell them as feeders so i dont try to do that i would only try to bread a DT to a strigh tail for color where i would work with them but to spawn 200+ just to get 1 fish no i wont do that
chardzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 10:15 AM   #25 
Myates
Member
 
Myates's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
It's common knowledge with breeders to not mix fin types without knowing that you will have to work with them for a few generations to "clean" them up. Sometimes people will mix fin types for color and then work on the fins.. even breeding an HMxHM will get you some, if not a bunch, of DTs and SDTs.

It depends on what you are aiming for, the type of buyers and whether or not you want to show your fish. If you are just wanting to breed to sell cheap to people who want pets then they don't need to be perfect, or near perfect.. they are just pets. But if you aim to sell to breeders and show people (where you will get the most for your fish) then you will work on bettering the fins. Most breeders aren't trying to get "heavy" fins, but more uniformed fins and sometimes the fins are a bit heavy.. with those you will then choose a female with nice tight fins to keep the next generation's fins more reigned in.

There are no "waste" fish - you can sell them to local fish stores for pennies or through ads in the newspaper.. but to make actual money from them you will want to make sure the fins are proper standards, etc, so you will choose the best finned ones you can find/have.

So, if you want certain colors/patterns there is no reason not to breed a HMxDT to get some HM and SDT with that color/pattern and then choose the better finned from those and breed those, etc. It does happen that out of a spawn you only get a couple good ones that are breed worthy.. it happens all the time. It's part of breeding, being selective and working with generations. If it wasn't done, we wouldn't have the strong variety we have now.
Myates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 10:42 AM   #26 
chardzard
Member
 
chardzard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Bridgtown Barbados
hummm very true to wat u r saying i just went in the yard n check some of my juvies in they grow out tank the spawn is about 200+ n they get picky just befor feeding n after as i got near the tank they started to swarm lol the lil guys act like they r never full n some of they started to flare at each other may be the filter is working them like if they r in a gym , aggression is part of they life and why i say this is from when i first work with them a few years ago i use to just buy any betta that look good or wat i think some 1 would want to buy from me a week or 2 after i had them and trying to bread them wat i notice is large females would beat up males if they r not aggressive n that at that and still seem to be the way they work i can remember in the early 2000 i had sold a woman some bettas n she call me about a year and half later wanting to buy a very large male , at that time i use to buy bread a few times n sell the male n females, wat the woman show me was a very huge female and she told me she had 2 of them they use to live in a 30 gal tank with good food n care so the first place she went was 1 of the pet stores where the owner use to bread them too n she told me the 2 females had kill most of this males , other guys that were breading bettas did not want to bread them after wat they hear wat happen luckly for me 1 of my friend had a steel bule male he had from me about the same time at that time all the bettas we could get were VT so i had to trim the male tail this was about 31/2 inc with tail very huge male too
at first he would not look at the female so wat i did they was put a younger male next to his tank for a few hours n it work like a dream
chardzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 02:51 PM   #27 
LadyVictorian
Member
 
LadyVictorian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myates View Post


It's not truly bred out of mice as it is.. it's still common for them to kill one another often. I've kept rats and mice, ran a rescue for them years ago (about 8-9 yrs ago) and had dozens of each and kept them in cages, some as tall as 6ft and would find a mouse here and there eaten by another - even the females would do it. So I believe humans can't fully take out something that mother nature had put into animals. Why we can't keep lions as house cats, and why dogs can and do bite people out of the blue - these are animals and nothing we do will change that. Can we alter some of their behavior? Yeah, but generally through training and breeding specifics, but that is never a guarantee.

With a rescue NEVER put petshop mice together, even females unless properly introduced over a week and the cage 100% cleaned and monitored. Petshop mice are aggressive because they are breed in mills. If they have a bunch of aggressive mice making babies they don't care. The only mice you can trust males together with are males from tracked bloodlines where the aggression is bred out and yet it can be breed fully out. I know someone who has been breeding 30+ years and the past 10 years her bucks have all been living together without anything more than a humping fest to show the dominant male. She worked many years to breed a satin tan strain that would be more docile, it's also how we domesticated them, by breeding those mice most inclined to adapt to captivity and adapt to socializing with us. As far as rats they are the same thing, even wild rats are not aggressive with each other to point of death since they are meant to live in large colonies in the wild called mischeifes. Again it's poor breeding or letting aggressive and violent rats reproduce to create aggressive and violent offspring who will attack people and other rats making them unsafe pets and unsafe animals. A lot of poor behavior in cats and dogs is even debated to be from poor breeding which happens a lot due to things like mills and backyard breeders but normally the dogs and cats purchased from breeders have less chance of being vicious and attacking people or having problems such as food aggression etc. Since all good breeders breed for temperament as well as conformation and health. You can tell a bad breeder by how poor their animals temperaments are and best to avoid them or you could end up with an animal that you'll be putting down due to attacking someone someday. I know it well too since we only ever use to get our dogs from good quality breeders and our dogs never had any negative behavior, then the first dog we rescued from a friend, bought from a pet store so it was a horribly bred puppy mill dog. Owned it a year and it bit someone unprovoked. We had the dog put down as it was a risk especially with small children coming to our home. Went back to only getting dogs from breeders and have yet to have any issues with our dogs once again.
LadyVictorian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 02:55 PM   #28 
Skyewillow
Member
 
Skyewillow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigania
LadyV, I get mutts, and I've never had a problem ;)
Skyewillow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 03:03 PM   #29 
Myates
Member
 
Myates's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Breeding plays a part in genetics, but animals will be animals - I've had more success with mutts than with purebreds. If someone is working on a line exclusively then they can do selective breeding to have some calmer animals, but it doesn't mean their animal nature was wiped away - just less likely for that particular breeder (of any animal). Does not mean that as a whole species it's temperament is calm/better and that aggressiveness won't be there. Just less likely for those specific ones from the one specific breeder. An instinct isn't wiped away after a few generations..

Also keep in mind we can't really compare a trainable mammal such as mice with fish - her mice are trained to be more docile, a learned behavior in ways because they are kept together (males) from the beginning of their life, and they are handled since the very beginning, which plays a part in ways how docile they will be as adults. I am positive that she has had many instances where a male/female was aggressive and had to be removed, etc. But the chances are a bit slimmer due to them being together since birth and being handled.. they learned not to fear nor bite. Can't really do that with fish that live their life based off of instinct alone.

Last edited by Myates; 01-09-2013 at 03:14 PM.
Myates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 03:15 PM   #30 
LadyVictorian
Member
 
LadyVictorian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Well taking dogs again it isn't instinct for a dog to hurt humans. Looking at wolves it's instinct to avoid humans. Even feral dogs avoid humans as best they can. When a dog shows aggression and attacks people it's poor breeding, NEVER instinct. Seldom in dog attacks are people doing anything wrong only going about their day when a dog attacks them. Same with dog fights, it isn't instinct for a dog to fight without a reason, it's breed into them. Even in wolf packs conflicts are constantly avoided by a hierarchy and fights seldom break out within the pack structure because everyone understands their part.

I also read that scientists had conducted an experiment with male betta's which was rather interesting. They brought up three batches of betta's, one raised together, one raised in jars where they could view each other, and one where they were raised in jars and their view was cut off. The most aggressive betta's were the ones who never got to see other bettas and the least aggressive were the males raised together. They built a hierarchy when they lived together and there was little fighting involved and little stress and the lower betta's understood not to start conflicts and the top dog kept watch on them and got first pick of food, space, etc but conflicts were rare. The betta's who never saw other betta's when put in tanks with other betta's instantly fought each other and even after a few days together were still fighting and had stress lines. The betta's who were in jars but could see each other were put together and fought but after some time like those in the tank put together a pecking order and they had less issues.

It was decided that betta's have a certain language they fail to learn when alienated like any animal really. Because they do not learn this they do not understand other fish when they try to be submissive and assume their is still a threat therefore they have to keep fighting and are in constant stress not knowing what their rival is going to do.

They also tested that male and female betta's who were left with their father longer (meaning he wasn't removed right after they were free swimming) were less aggressive during courting. Thought this was all very interesting stuff.
LadyVictorian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is he show/breeding quality? Foxers Show Bettas 12 12-30-2012 10:55 PM
How do they show Betta at a show? sstacy19 Betta Chat 12 10-16-2012 11:15 PM
this goes to show! fishy friend2 Betta Fish Bowls, Habitats, and Accessories 4 03-10-2012 08:43 PM
Another post for helping with breeding: breeding with genes that don't breed true. MrVampire181 Breeding Betta Fish 3 08-24-2009 07:21 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.