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Old 01-09-2013, 07:21 PM   #41 
Myates
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I understand that, most (good) breeders do outcross - usually using a true cambodian or black to "wipe the slate clean". There is nothing wrong with that, and that should be done after so many generations. I have never said to inbreed nonstop - I mentioned inbreed to a point before you have to bring in new genes, etc. But I don't believe there is any "chink" to any particular fin type yet - same species, same species as the wild splendens - but different fin growth/shape - just no particular health issue from fin types at this time.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:26 PM   #42 
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Even though they're the same species, doesn't make them the same breed. And even with out crossing, the issues I discussed with other animals will eventually come into play. We haven't been domesticating bettas as long as dogs and cats.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:29 PM   #43 
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Straying as this is from the original argument, I would imagine even in the wild there would be bottlenecks from time to time when populations shrunk down to only a few breeding fish. If the fish are in an isolated area and something like habitat destruction or drought causes the death of a large number of these fish, you are only going to have the same fish spawning amongst themselves.

Also most other species outside of the splendens complex tend not to hybridise at all so even if by chance another fish of the same complex got into the area, once again you would be getting the same inbreeding happening because that fish would not be considered for spawning.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:46 PM   #44 
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You're right, Little. It does happen in the wild. And when it does, it's only for a few generations, domestication is a long-term bottleneck.

I really like how this is challenging all of us as betta keepers. A lot of good points are coming up, and it's all food for thought.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:14 PM   #45 
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that last part not so true if u let a spawn grow up with the father he domanate that tank so no other betta will flare in that tank so eazly now if 1 of the young females spawn with the father now they both become aggressive so in fish u may get lucky n get a set of bettas that go will with others n at same time i have a copper spawn is very aggressive n the type of copper they r maybe some 1 wanted them to be aggressive for show now the the male copper i use was from a pet store inported stock the female came from 4th generation line n that line did well with other fish
right now i have 6 batchs ,2 batch is 100% local 4 r 50/50 n 1 is 100% off 2 inports , 1 batch witch is a 50/50 spawn r black snail killers
so i had to add some large gold snails to they tank to help keep the plant clean but they sledum flear at each other but just like some people behave the same way too
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:36 PM   #46 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myates View Post
I understand that, most (good) breeders do outcross - usually using a true cambodian or black to "wipe the slate clean". There is nothing wrong with that, and that should be done after so many generations. I have never said to inbreed nonstop - I mentioned inbreed to a point before you have to bring in new genes, etc. But I don't believe there is any "chink" to any particular fin type yet - same species, same species as the wild splendens - but different fin growth/shape - just no particular health issue from fin types at this time.
i for 1 want to have better bettas so if i follow wat u r sayin here in about 3-5 years i can have some very nice fish to scream about , now from 1 of my june-july spawn i use a dark red male that came out a red copper spawn to a cambodian female who had yellow in her background wat i go out of that spawn was some dark red about 60% adark yellow30% (i keep all of them)the othe 10% look kinda black but not pure black keep them too i have plans for the dark yellow guys now Question if i cross the black looking bettas to my black copper or should i try to cross them to a black marble? lookin to get some black bettas (yes i like hard work)
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:51 PM   #47 
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Ahhhhgggrg. Cell updated late. Blegh. I was commenting on a WAY earlier post on like, the 2nd page.

Im gonna try and collect the debate points before posting on my computer. Cant trust my phone...
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:55 PM   #48 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyewillow View Post
Even though they're the same species, doesn't make them the same breed. And even with out crossing, the issues I discussed with other animals will eventually come into play. We haven't been domesticating bettas as long as dogs and cats.
The only problem with this...is that Cats and Dogs take FAR longer to breed than these fish. When you can spawn and breed within a few months, the genetic focus is accelerated as compared to "purebred" dogs and cats.

This is also due to the fact that each spawning can have HUNDREDS as compared to only 2-8 pups or kits...and sometimes a litter will have NO "breedable" purebreds. So a dog breeder would have to wait nearly a year and a half to retry, then another year for THOSE pups to mature.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:59 PM   #49 
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Okay, honest question.. If you can't breed for temperament, how can you have something like a Caucasian ovcharka and then something like a Labrador? (dogs, I know we talked about how fish are simpler)..
And question 2 (about fish!) I thought wild bettas don't fight to the death (generally) but our domestic males will fight to the death, even if they have more than enough territory. Somehow it's just not clicking with me.
I know with male wrestling halfbeaks (not domestic) in a small bowl they will fight non stop, but once in a larger tank have no problem coexisting... This seems to be the case with certain wild bettas? But not our own? Like what am I missing?
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:09 PM   #50 
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Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
Okay, honest question.. If you can't breed for temperament, how can you have something like a Caucasian ovcharka and then something like a Labrador? (dogs, I know we talked about how fish are simpler)..
And question 2 (about fish!) I thought wild bettas don't fight to the death (generally) but our domestic males will fight to the death, even if they have more than enough territory. Somehow it's just not clicking with me.
I know with male wrestling halfbeaks (not domestic) in a small bowl they will fight non stop, but once in a larger tank have no problem coexisting... This seems to be the case with certain wild bettas? But not our own? Like what am I missing?
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But you CAN breed for temperament... Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox This is information on the Siberian study into domestication.

These scientists specifically bred for DOCILE nature. ANd on the flip side, they specifically took the MOST aggressive pups and bred them to get EXTREMELY feral foxes.

I believe this can be done with ANY conscious creature.
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