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Old 02-14-2013, 11:08 PM   #41 
Option
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Originally Posted by Xaltd1 View Post
Do you have any EEs? Have you seen them swim? Or swim w/ with other bettas?
I speak from observations of my 3 EEs- 1 male, 2 females in a sorority. Look at the pectoral fins of your bettas.
Ummm....yes. That betta in my avatar happened to be a product of EE parents (he just happened not to have inherited the mutation).


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Originally Posted by Xaltd1 View Post
They undulate, rather than flap. Just imagine them bigger. My sorority EEs should be dead by now if they were at a significant handicap of the other 7 females. They're just as speedy!
The fact that they undulate (as opposed to a stiff flap) makes drag resistance in the water. Thus, the bigger the fins are the more drag it causes...this isn't something I'm making up, it's plain & simple physics. As I alluded to earlier, for the same reason this is why fancy-finned goldfish can't swim as well. To your naked eye it may seem your EE is "just as speedy" as the rest. But they're really not....and that margin of drag in their swimming compromises their survival (a whole other topic that is outside the scope of this thread). Not to mention the EE pectoral fins signal way too much attention to predators.

That said, my intent is not to put down EE owners. I've owned EEs myself as I said above. But for an EE fanatic to make all these blatantly false claims about EEs uncompromised swimming.....is simply absurd.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:39 AM   #42 
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This whole thread was created for the sole purpose of putting down anyone who likes EE's. It's ridiculous. If I posted a thread complaining about another variety, everyone would be on me like a pack of dogs to defend whatever it is.

It's lame that someone feels the need to degrade the breed, and the people who enjoy them...

Thank you! Frankly, this thread is pointless. We have some who are spreading unfounded and unproven myths about how they can't swim, some who are viciously defending ee... I'm really quite sick of it. There is no valuable information on this thread, just a few people voicing their opinions and attacking anyone who disagrees. And no modern betta splendens, ee or not, would ever last a day in the wild. And yes, if ee was at a large disadvantage they would have been destroyed in a sorority.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:56 AM   #43 
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They can swim but common physics say they cant swim easily. Is it right to breed fish that find it hard to swim just so we can look at them? Personally I dont think so, plus in my opinion I hate the look
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:09 AM   #44 
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This whole thread was created for the sole purpose of putting down anyone who likes EE's. It's ridiculous. If I posted a thread complaining about another variety, everyone would be on me like a pack of dogs to defend whatever it is.

It's lame that someone feels the need to degrade the breed, and the people who enjoy them...
I am the one who started this thread, and you couldn't be more wrong. Go back and read my posts again. I never said there shouldn't be ee. I said the excessive, large ee should not be breed.

Since no one on here is a mind reader, I will tell you exactly why I started this thread. It is a shame that people are breeding things into these fish that are not beneficial to them. These are living creatures. This thread is to get people to think about what they are breeding into their fish. Not just ee, but other things as well.

If you believe this thread is a waste of time, you do not have to be here. You are free to pass it up and move to something else.

If all of those who believe that the large ee is not a hindrance to the fish, why don't you go patent floppy style fins for people to go scuba diving with? It is a product that cannot be found on the market, and you should make you a killing if the floppy material helps you swim better and faster.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:50 AM   #45 
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This is all a freaking moot point..

When a fish swims forward their pectorals are held to their bodies - the water being pushed around them while swimming will keep the fins plastered to their sides - and size of the fins do not matter at this point. During the actual forward motion the pectorals are not in use.

So the large pectoral fins have NOTHING to do with the act of swimming. Period.

When a fish stops the pectorals will start to move to help keep the fish in place. Fish with small pectorals will move them a lot quicker than fish with larger pectorals. But they both move their pecs quickly and gently depending upon current, etc. There is no difference in how they move their fins at a standstill.

There is no way to judge hindrance on these fish, as when you watch them you will see that both EEs and non EEs swim the same, move the same, turn the same... it's all equal to one another. We can't say "well, because the physics as we understand it says that there should be drag" and expect it to be solid fact. That is silly.. as I mentioned earlier, the act of swimming forward the pectorals are not in use.. so the "physics of drag" don't come into play the way it's being presented here.

If you don't like them.. then fine, don't buy, don't breed. But since there is no proof of a lesser quality of life, and there is no way there ever could be a true answer to that.. then just leave the breeders be. These are fins. FINS. These said fins have yet to physically handicap the fish in any way. Breeders are tweaking something that had popped up during the course of breeding. Since it's new, give it time to be balanced out some.. since the gene is so very recessive, it's hard to know what you are going to get right now breeding them.

Oh, and just because the parents are an EE, but the fish you have don't have the big pectorals, doesn't qualify as owning an actual EE :)

Scuba diving as HUMANS is NO WHERE near the same as a FISH that is adapted to swimming in water, and adapted to what they are born with. THEY ARE FISH, we are humans.. there is NO contest to it. We will be having a hard time "flapping" regardless what we use because we ARE NOT fish.

Here.. side by side.. I have yet to see why this one has a lesser quality of life than the one next to it?

To each their own opinion on whether they like something or not.. I can respect that. But I'm not going to tell people it's wrong to do something when there is no evidence or fact to back up my claim.

Last edited by Myates; 02-15-2013 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:10 AM   #46 
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Quote:
When a fish swims forward their pectorals are held to their bodies - the water being pushed around them while swimming will keep the fins plastered to their sides - and size of the fins do not matter at this point. During the actual forward motion the pectorals are not in use.

So the large pectoral fins have NOTHING to do with the act of swimming. Period.

When a fish stops the pectorals will start to move to help keep the fish in place. Fish with small pectorals will move them a lot quicker than fish with larger pectorals. But they both move their pecs quickly and gently depending upon current, etc. There is no difference in how they move their fins at a standstill.

There is no way to judge hindrance on these fish, as when you watch them you will see that both EEs and non EEs swim the same, move the same, turn the same... it's all equal to one another. We can't say "well, because the physics as we understand it says that there should be drag" and expect it to be solid fact.That is silly.. as I mentioned earlier, the act of swimming forward the pectorals are not in use.. so the "physics of drag" don't come into play.

If you don't like them.. then fine, don't buy, don't breed. But since there is no proof of a lesser quality of life, and there is no way there ever could be a true answer to that.. then just leave the breeders be. These are fins. FINS. These said fins have yet to physically handicap the fish in any way. Breeders are tweaking something that had popped up during the course of breeding. Since it's new, give it time to be balanced out some.. since the gene is so very recessive, it's hard to know what you are going to get right now breeding them.

Oh, and just because the parents are an EE, but the fish you have don't have the big pectorals, doesn't qualify as owning an actual EE :)

Here.. side by side.. I have yet to see why this one has a lesser quality of life than the one next to it?

To each their own opinion on whether they like something or not.. I can respect that. But I'm not going to tell people it's wrong to do something when there is no evidence or fact to back up my claim.

Well, I think Myrates proves our point pretty well right here. Watch the video. That ee seems to swim just like a normal fish! Wow!


And louisvillelady, your intentions don't really matter, this thread was has become /was created for the sole purpose of attacking ee and the people who like and breed them. And, um... Fish are completely different animals then humans, who were not really meant to swim in the first place. And the "fins" that humans wear go on our feet when fishes pectoral fins are on the equivalent of their chest. Also, fishes pectoral fins move in a completely different motion then humans with fins do. Fishes pectorals undulate, while humans flap. And thus, that argument is invalid.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:47 AM   #47 
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We can't say "well, because the physics as we understand it says that there should be drag" and expect it to be solid fact. That is silly.. as I mentioned earlier, the act of swimming forward the pectorals are not in use.. so the "physics of drag" don't come into play the way it's being presented here.

If you don't like them.. then fine, don't buy, don't breed. But since there is no proof of a lesser quality of life, and there is no way there ever could be a true answer to that.. then just leave the breeders be. These are fins. FINS. These said fins have yet to physically handicap the fish in any way. Breeders are tweaking something that had popped up during the course of breeding. Since it's new, give it time to be balanced out some.. since the gene is so very recessive, it's hard to know what you are going to get right now breeding them.

Oh, and just because the parents are an EE, but the fish you have don't have the big pectorals, doesn't qualify as owning an actual EE :)
Hold one just one second, since when to the laws of physics SUDDENLY not apply to objects or animals in water??? EEs are nice and all but they don't defy the laws of physics. LOL...they are still mortals! Good grief.

Yes, I do own EEs.....did you think I mean that I didn't own the parents???? Do everything need to be spelled out letter by letter on this thread.

And I'll say it again, I am not one to say that EE shouldn't be bred. I am only saying that those EE obsessives out there should not think that EE fins are in no way compromising its swimming...cause they do (deal with it) no matter whether you can appreciate that with your eyes or not.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:59 AM   #48 
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Not saying the laws of physics don't apply generally. But we can't say that _x_ is _x_ because we think so. There is no way to absolutely say whether or not that the quality of life is lessened in any way in this particular case because what we think it may be. Comparing the way a certian fish swims to how humans swim is not a way to prove physics, nor a way to prove how hampered certain fins are. When pushing off to swim, wouldn't having more of a spread make it easier to push? Or would having something really thin make it easier to push off with? Otherwise, how are the fins hampering? How is physics proving that it's hampering? If having slimmer fins and less overall fin makes it harder to push off with is bad.. then why is it that other animals try to mimic it? Webbing on a duck's feet.. heck, webbing on a labrador retriever's feet?

So physics in this specific topic of having larger pectorals shows that it's not really a hamper - they use the added coverage to help push off quicker/easier, and in the action of moving forward they don't use the fins at all.

And don't tell us to deal with it, because there is no fact whether or not they are being compromised in any way. Visually you can see that they are not hampered by it, so all one can argue is the physics of it, but even then it's iffy at best.
You can not use the physics of humans in water and compare it to an animal who solely lives in water. So yes, the laws of physics can differ depending upon situations.

Human with a flipper does not use the same physics as a fish with larger pectoral fins.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:32 AM   #49 
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Honestly, My EE gets around EASIER than my other males, a delta, a veil, and 2 crowns.

So he has a "lower quality of life" because he CAN and DOES have it easier than my males with long finnage everywhere else? I'm finding that a little hard to believe.

The only "difficulty" I can read on the fish in the video is from that extra full tail. He swims the same exact way my VT does.

Meanwhile, my EE will zoom across his tank, frequently, using those big old pecs.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:33 AM   #50 
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Am I the only one that has 2 female EEs (that I paid $$$ for as EEs) living alongside 7 other "normal" females with absolutely no hindrance or problem due to abnormality/physics/whatever? I have 9 little fish noses coming out of the water at feeding time! They all jump, beg, and otherwise zoom around despite the difference in fins: 2 PKEEs, 2 CTs, 5 HMs! I bought them b/c they are so beautiful!! Just sayin'- one success story here.
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