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Old 02-15-2013, 04:32 PM   #71 
trilobite
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Lion fish and Bettas swim completely differently. Lionfish use their tails more than their pectorals, plus their pecs arent a huge blanket but more like spines sticking out of smaller pectorals.

Heres a lion fish swimming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iKe5WZPZLs
Heres a betta swimming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1eRpQ1a4IE

See the difference in style?

People shouldn't get so offended by a friendly debate over types of fish. Its interesting to learn the pros and cons of the types

Heres some legit scientific info on swimming types. Bettas are drag based swimmers, the ideal shape is blunt triangle which normal Bettas are, a square or rectangle creates more intereferance drag which is a bad thing. Dumbos have square pectorals.
http://129.173.33.56:5080/AFtoilons/...s/modeswim.pdf


P.S LadyVictorian, that mermaid swimming looks so cool!
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:56 PM   #72 
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Originally Posted by LadyVictorian View Post
evolution my friend is mutation as well, mutations that improve a species and are passed along...so...yeah. Evolution=mutations...just saying
Ok, I can agree with you there. Strictly speaking, evolution is a product of a mutation....BUT the mutant has undergone selection (and proved it's worth in nature) and thus we call the new fin variation an 'evolution'. Not just a regular mutation anymore. So because lionfish pectoral fins have undergone the test of time (aka natural selection) then we can definitely conclude that their large pectoral fins are a survival advantage amongst its own species. Not all fish!!!

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Originally Posted by LadyVictorian View Post
In the end Lionfish are not hampered by their large pectorals as serpents are not hampered by their lack of limbs and nor are EE's hampered from their larger pectorals. If they truly were then they would all be in poor health, have shorter lifespans, and show evidence of their misery. Of all the EE video's I have seen they are all active, healthy fish who show 0 sign of strain or stress from their enlarged fins.
Again I have no idea why you bring lionfish or serpents into this....these two kind of animals have undergone selection! And thus making their features an asset to their survival. The EEs may have survived (at the hands of man) but this does not place them in the same category as the lionfish w/ big fins nor the serpent w/o legs. Not by a mile is it even close.

Lastly I can't help but to ask: Just because the EEs appear to be "active" or "show 0 signs of stress" to your naked eye means that they're non-hampered in their lives?
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:09 PM   #73 
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Well then according to your argument halfmoons, doubletails, delta tails, super delta's veiltails, crowntails, crowntail plakats, and halfmoon plakats, rosetails, feather tails, and spade tails are ALL cruel and NO ONE should breed betta because ALL of those tail types are selectively bred and not proven to survive in the wild THUS we shouldn't breed betta's because every tail type and color is unnatural and wrong.

The only betta we should really have with this logic is fighters.

Last edited by LadyVictorian; 02-15-2013 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:21 PM   #74 
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As mentioned before, Bettas don't swim primarily with their unpaired fins so lengthening these will not hinder them as much as lengthening their pectorals would since they are their primary means of locomotion.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:22 PM   #75 
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I have seen far more halfmoons with larger tails have more issues swimming than EE's. I have even seen HM who won't go into open water because their tails are too heavy and weigh them down but all EE's I see are fine and active and healthy and have no issues being in open space and rest far less than some HM i have seen.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:26 PM   #76 
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I agree that excessive finnage in any type is bad, I've seen hms with to much finnage as well that can hardly stay horizontal. This topic is talking about excessive EE with breeders selecting for bigger and bigger pectorals
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:35 PM   #77 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsZqvx2QFEM

Not seeing this betta struggle with swimming. I see 0 struggle with his swimming at all. His ears are pretty big too adn he still zips around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fJGBXuli90

This HM looks like he is having a harder time getting around vs the EE and his fins are not even too long they are what I consider idea for a HM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:59 PM   #78 
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Mattsbettas, I encourage you to go back over my posts and find one time that I attack someone. And if you would READ what I said about swimming, you would realize how wrong that statement was also. The act of swimming is the same no matter what is "swimming". It is pushing yourself through the water. Displacing water in a manner that you propel through the water. The only difference is how each thing accomplishes this act.

Lionfish pectoral fins are structured completely different from the ee bettas. The bettas are a solid fin. Spines connected by webbing. In excessive ee, the spines do not go to the end of the fins and therefore the fish does not have control over the entire fin. Lionfish fins are made up of separated spines with webbing down one side completely connected from the tip of the spine all the way to the body of the fish. There is no resistance on the lionfish because the water can flow through the space between the spines. With the betta fish, the water cannot do this. Also the markings on the lionfish help camouflage the fish. Another reason for the separated spines. It helps the fish look like a plant and hide.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:18 PM   #79 
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Depends on the species of Lionfish when talking about the pectorals as there is more than one species.

http://fishtanx.files.wordpress.com/...1-lionfish.jpg
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Galler...redlionnps.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9LjlseyJTa...0/Lionfish.JPG
http://cdn1.arkive.org/media/58/5836...de-profile.jpg
http://www.biology101.org/archive/wp...0/lionfish.jpg

but yeah...you get the idea. Some of them don't have the 'space between the spikes' as webbing spreads between all or most of the spikes on many species of lionfish. The stereotypical one people know of however does look as you described but not so with all the other species.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:36 PM   #80 
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Well then according to your argument halfmoons, doubletails, delta tails, super delta's veiltails, crowntails, crowntail plakats, and halfmoon plakats, rosetails, feather tails, and spade tails are ALL cruel and NO ONE should breed betta because ALL of those tail types are selectively bred and not proven to survive in the wild THUS we shouldn't breed betta's because every tail type and color is unnatural and wrong.

+1^

And swimming is not even a natural behavior for humans. Would you expect a batta to get up and walk? Your comparison is so rediculously inaccurate that it is invalid. As I said, I am bronze cross certified and swim for hours a week and I also watch my fish (including the ee) for a ton of time. It is fairly obvious that fish are meant to swim and humans are not.

Quote:
Years ago, when the veil tails came about, (Long before my "betta life) It was the THING! then they found out how difficult it was for the fish to carry around those very unnatural and heavy fins. So the hobby turned toward shorter fins for the good of the fish.

When the EE first came about, they were very pretty. Added a new dimision and "Flare" to an already gorgeous fish. Now it seems, they are breeding for bigger and longer and frillier pectoral fins. The fish seem to not have control of the outer portions of these fins. I do not own an EE betta. But do love the look of the shorter ones. While watching the videos of the ones with the larger EE fins, they seem to be a bit of a hindrance. An avid swimmer myself, yes, I'm not a fish, I can see it would be a problem to have a "flap" that I cannot control, hanging off the ends of my hands. Just a thought that I wanted to share.

Please, go ahead and explain the significance or meaning of this post. There is no factual information what so ever. And you don't even own a elephant ear and yet you are lecturing people on how bad they are?!
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