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Old 03-01-2013, 11:32 AM   #11 
tpopcaz
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Ok thanks for all the info! I really appreciate it!
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:34 AM   #12 
Myates
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Can also feed micro cultures.. mine feed mainly on those.

Have to agree with gnats though - he was most likely caring for the nest.. he will take some out and replace them, clean them, etc.

The female.. iffy.. they could still of been in the process as it can take hours to finish spawning. She may of been under the nest waiting for the next round. Normally when done with spawning the male will force the female as far away from the nest as possible and she will stay there, won't go near the nest. Most times the females do get beat up during the process.. the males force them into submission (usually for new to breeding females) so being clamped up and not swimming a whole lot does happen. Experienced pairs/females know what to do and tend to do the right things to ensure a bit more safety.. even then they can get beat up badly. My last batch, the female has bred a few times prior and she still got a lot of bite wounds and clampy.

Next time wait until the male chases the female away, and she is in the far corner before removing her and keep the male in. It's all a learning process.. You'll find what works best for you :)

With the egg yolk be very careful as it fouls up the water really fast.. I won't use it because of that, because you do water changes after a few days of life, but you can't replenish with new water quickly.. so the egg yolk will be in the water making it bleh. Micro cultures tend to last longer.. and are small enough for newborn fry to eat. Along with infusoria.

Don't get me wrong, some breeders use the egg yolk, but not a whole lot of breeders, and not without risk.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:49 AM   #13 
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Good luck! Keep us updated! :)

Edit: I have to agree with Myates about the egg yolk. I've only tried it once, but it did make a rather nasty mess- not to mention the smell. >__<
I had a culture of white worms, but they quickly died off- they made great food though!

Last edited by youlovegnats; 03-01-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:26 PM   #14 
Oldfishlady
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Congrats....

Lots of different methods to successfully-keep, breed and rear fry and why you will see different opinions-Most are not wrong-just different based on personal experience, what they had on hand, what worked in the past...etc....Sometimes it can even change from one attempt to the next.

A lot of fish keeping in general can vary due to location, season, past experiences...etc...Just because it is different doesn't mean it is wrong.

A lot in fish keeping falls to common sense, judgement calls and trial an error to a degree.

Sometimes we have to get our hands wet...lol...and just do it....Only so much can be learned from research-With that said, you still need to do the research to get the general idea and most important IMO-understand normal behavior so you can recognize abnormal behavior-But since we are working with live creatures-anything can happen...lol... I have been keeping and breeding tropical fish for a really long time and I still will have something new and exciting happen-Especially with spawning this species....lol...they love to keep us on our toes and thinking outside the box....

Anyway, when the female was under the nest in the lifeless/stunned state or floating-was the male in the process of gathering eggs. If so, what you were seeing was the normal stun response after the embrace. After they embrace-both will be stunned-the female usually floats upward and the male downward-The male will wake up first and start gathering eggs-then seconds later the female wakens and she usually will grab a gulp of air and go looking for eggs-Then the pair will start the process over...The spawning process can last for hours-When completed the male will drive the female off-This is when you want to remove the female.

The male will then tend to the nest and eggs-generally he will stay under the nest-only leaving on occasion-he should be mouthing the eggs, repairing the nest and he may even move his brood all together to a different location.

The male will generally eat any of the infertile eggs, weak/bad eggs...etc...Some males will eat healthy-viable eggs if he feels threatened-especially first time breeders if the hobbyist disturb them too much. The male can view this as a threat and will eat the eggs for the protein so he will have energy to spawn again when its safe. Some males will eat all the eggs/fry for no reason at all too....

Provided that everything is going as planned-you should have hatch within 24-32h up to 48h-Water temp too high or too low can change the timeline of hatch. IME-I have found that 80F to be ideal-Too low or too high can sometimes cause-either too fast or too slow growth/development that can result in weak fry. Remembering that in the fish world-especially with an already short lived species that is born-matures and reproduces within the first 3-6 months of life-seconds-minutes-hours can be a long time.
The pH can also effect hatch rate-with extreme high/low pH causing growth/development issue, however, it is best to maintain a stable pH without using chemical additives if at all possible.

Once the eggs hatch-the wigglers will feed off their yolk sac for the next 48-72h up to 80h depending on temp and pH. You don't need to add any food for the fry until they start free swimming. If the tank was setup properly-you may or may not have microorganism already in the water-especially under the nest and in live plants. The fry will feed on these even while in the wiggler stage-It is instinct driven to snap at anything that moves and why live food is best-not that processed food or cooked egg yolk won't work-but more due to live being better in term of nutrition and stimulation of normal feeding response.

During the first week-the male should be tending the fry-mouthing them-he will sometimes collect fry in his mouth and carry them around, getting a gulp of air...etc... before placing them back in the nest.

IMO/E-feeding or not feeding the male during incubation of eggs or in the wiggler stage-doesn't cause the male to eat the eggs/fry due to hunger or mistaking his offspring as food. It is instinct for the male to protect his offspring, however, with that said, we are also dealing with a closed system and a domesticated fish that could possibly have wonky genetics and limited natural instincts-One of the reason these fish can drive us nuts...lol....meaning anything can happen regarding instincts that may or may not kick in...lol...

Same with lights on or off at night-personally, I turn the lights off at night-but you will read and/or be advised to leave the light on 24h/day until the fry are free swimming an male removed. Either will work IMO/E-I have yet to have a male not be able to tend to or caused him to eat his offspring due to total darkness. Fish have a sense organ called the Lateral line-this organ functions somewhat like echo location so fish can function in the dark.

Lots of things can happen that you never would expect-lots of things can go wrong and a lot of things can go right-Do your research, get your supplies-have a plan-then get your hands wet...Most important....have fun and be responsible-these are living creatures after all....

Good luck and if this spawn ends in a failure-Don't give up...re-group and try again....This time armed with more knowledge and a bit of experience-along with help from all of the great members on this forum.

Look forward to hearing about your spawning experience....
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:31 PM   #15 
tpopcaz
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I'll keep yall updated!
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:03 PM   #16 
GoodMorning
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oldfishlady...../novel, haha
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:04 PM   #17 
Hadoken Kitty
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Seriously thinking OFL needs to make a sticky on like, every single thread ever. Haha.
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Old 03-03-2013, 01:21 PM   #18 
tpopcaz
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Well this morning it seems like most of the eggs had fallen to the bottom and I was loosing hope, but just noticed two wigglers swimming to the top so I still may get something!
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Old 03-03-2013, 03:13 PM   #19 
Oldfishlady
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Awesome...keep us posted....
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Old 03-03-2013, 06:33 PM   #20 
Myates
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Yay!
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