Dragon scale/metallic genes

[louisvillelady]

Okay, I think I've had brain overload!

I have a copper male, and I think I understand the genetics behind that coloring.

I will be getting a dragonscale yellow male next week from Thailand. While researching dragon scale, I realize, I don't understand.

Dragon scale is metalic. So copper is steel blue with two metallic genes. What is dragon scale then? I've seen steel blue dragon scale, but I've not seen copper dragon scale.

Is there such a thing as copper dragonscale? Is there such a thing as steel blue dragon scale?
The more I research the dumber I get.

[Bettafish]

Dragon scale is a gene where the scales are larger, its a recessive gene, it requires two matallic genes to activate the larger scales

[louisvillelady]

That's what is confusing me. Copper is steel blue with two metallic genes. Yet I've seen fish called steel blue dragon scale. So if dragon scale is two metallic genes, how can there be steel blue dragon scale. I'm missing something here. Yet I've never seen copper dragon scale.

[MattsBettas]

I'm excited to watch this because I am planning a draginscale spawn in early April. Draginscale x draginscale geno (not full coverage). All I know is that it is not a real Betta splendens trait, it was introduced from a wild type. Aka not natural. It is recessive, but easy to get if you know how to line breed. I think the gene not only affects the color, but the thickness too. Probably why some dragonscales go blind when metallic don't.

Edit: apparently my phone thinks dragonscale is spelt draginscale. Stupid phone.

[louisvillelady]

Yes, I have seen some awful dragonscale where it covered the eyes. I have also heard that while it slows down when the fish matures, it does continue to grow and can eventually cover the eyes even if it didn't when you first get the fish. I am somewhat leary of the trait, while I do like it, I am going to be a very causious and responsible breeder with this trait. I just fell in love with this fish when I saw him. So thought, well, I'll give it a try. What color are you going to work with? I've yet to find a female. Since I really didn't care for the trait, I didn't really look into it until I found this male. I just can't make heads or tails out of the way this gene works. steel blue with wo metallics make copper. So how can there be steel blue dragon scale?

Here is my new male!

Do you see how there is a blue tint in some spots? do you think he may have some marbling or something? that maybe he would have blue spots if he wasn't dragon scale? Either way, I just think he is beautiful!

[indjo]

I'm trying to figure out dragons my self. . . not in theory but facts. Since I can't breed as I did in the past, I have to figure them out by looking at other people's results.

Theoretically, metallics are single metallic while dragons are double metallic . . . at least that's what I read (somewhere). But I'm not really concerned about the theory. I noticed that color combo works a bit differently on them. Yellow for example is physically brought out easier compared to regular colors.

I don't now how to explain copper, copper dragon, and steel blue dragon as I don't know the theory behind them. But I do know they exist. I've seen and even had them. Copper dragon (the one I had) was more grey than copper. Copper metallics have a tint of red on them that make them look copper. These copper dragons commonly come in black dragons. When crossed to red dragons they may produce silverish/grey body with red fins. . . . not sure what to call them. I haven't had the chance to cross them to other colors.

Steel blue dragons look rather dull compared to the turquoise/green and the blue dragon. I have never produce royal blue when crossing the two colors. I only got more steel blue and green which came in different shades - from dull to bright. . . . this differs to regular colors . . .
In regular color green x steel blue will produce royal blue. But on the other hand breeding a blue dragon to platinum will produce some steel blue. . . . don't know how that works in theory. I'm guessing this is due to the platinum's genetic background being steel blue.

In theory steel blue genes is responsible for copper, platinum and steel blue dragon. The best logic I can think of is the total genetic make up. In order to physically be those colors, they need specific genetic combinations. . . . white, for example, is royal blue x cambodian(NR). But white will not always appear. They need that specific combination to be white. So I guess the above colors too need similar combinations.

Your guy seems to have white, blue, and yellow in him. So if you breed him, those colors will take part in determining fry color. If you want clean white bodies, like dragons should be, I suggest not breeding him to a copper. (You might get grey body). Breed him to a white body dragon or irid dragon.

Sorry I can't explain it better. Please share what ever you breed him with so we can all learn how these color works.

[louisvillelady]

Thanks Indjo! Yeah I don't plan to breed him to the copper. The copper I have is a male, however, I have a tank of 300 of his fry, so I may have some copper females in there. I'm trying to find another yellow dragon, or second choice will be blue/yellow bi color dragon.

I think there must be a whole lot of misinformation out there when it comes to the genetics of these fish. I have read that copper is steel blue with two metallic genes. Then when researching dragonscale, it says that it is two metallic genes. Well, you can't have it both ways. Either steel blue and two metallic genes equals steel blue dragon, or it produces copper.

I don't have a clue what it has to do with, and that makes trying to create something a little difficult. I use aquabid alot to see various colors and combinations. Although it gets me in trouble, because I come across fish that HAVE TO HAVE! Like this golden dragon. lol

I also don't care much for the mask. While this betta has a beautiful mask, and it is desired by the majority, I think I will back off of it because it can cover the eyes.

Do you think it helps brighten the colors any? It seems that the ones who are dragon have wonderful bright color, but then I don't know if maybe its just that they come from good experienced breeders.

If I am unable to find a dragonscale female to go with him, do you think I could still accomplish a dragon line by matching him with a metallic yellow. I know it will take another generation or two, but am I thinking correctly that it can be done?

And what did you mean by "I noticed that color combo works a bit differently on them. Yellow for example is physically brought out easier compared to regular colors. " I am unsure what you meant by this.

Thanks again!

[louisvillelady]

Oh yeah, something else I was thinking is maybe a red dragon. Phusit has some beautiful ones on aquabid. It would add a lot of extra generdations because they are notmal size bettas and he is a giant, plus it would be sort of a guessing game to try and get they yellow back. But I guess the generations could be working on both , getting the yellow back and working on the size.

[MattsBettas]

A metallic/dragon cross will give you some dragon geno types in f1, and in f2 you would get dragons back.

[louisvillelady]

So then the metallic yellow would work. I think that is gonna be my best bet. I've seen them in giant before, but this is the first giant yellow dragon that wasn't a fortune! lol Thanks Matts