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Old 12-15-2013, 11:23 PM   #1051 
Mahsfish
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I still don't like that idea of fighting dogs to see which should be bred as that is cruel aswell as the dogs aren't going to be living in conditions where they need to bee extra hardy. But I can see how that is different from just plain dog fighting for the joy of the owners.

Aswell as that could easily be a step avaoided in breeding them. In bettas on the other hand, it's hard to prevent fighting between a pair if you wish to breed them when they are testing each others strength
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Old 12-15-2013, 11:27 PM   #1052 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahsfish View Post
I still don't like that idea of fighting dogs to see which should be bred as that is cruel aswell as the dogs aren't going to be living in conditions where they need to bee extra hardy. But I can see how that is different from just plain dog fighting for the joy of the owners.

Aswell as that could easily be a step avaoided in breeding them. In bettas on the other hand, it's hard to prevent fighting between a pair if you wish to breed them when they are testing each others strength

Definitely don't agree with the idea of fighting any animal, but as I said, it was an interesting find in the research.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:29 AM   #1053 
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Its actually critically important to take the steps needed to prevent fighting of the breeding pair. Most often its the female who loses in this situation. The female must be in breed mode before release into the spawn tank. Close attention to her behavior pre spawn and during conditioning can save a life. Females are critical in any breeding program and losing a good girl is very sad. Some males are kind and patient others can be nasty so knowing your fish can reply help. Breeding is very hard on the fish and many females can die due to a beating or stress which can open the door for infection. Post spawn care is also important as I've seen many females die in the week after spawning.

The discussion in this thread is very interesting. When I first started ethics never entered my mind. I was told early that a successful show breeder has to breed hard and cull hard. It didn't take long to realize that wasn't for me. I see bettas as cool pets and love their personalities. To play on the real show circuit requires more time,money and culling than I'm willing to do for what is really a fish beauty contest. Showing is all about conformity. Not my strong suit and really limits what you can do with the fish.

To me betta fighting is an ugly side of the betta world. It is exactly the same a dog or bull fighting in my eyes. You may not all understand the methods used to train the betta to fight and I wont go into it here but lets just say it may make you sick if you knew the details. There are breeders that live in both show and fighting worlds. I have chosen to not take part in either because I would just not feel good about myself. We all have different goals in life and with our fish. My goal now is to learn how to keep fish in top notch health, no other goals matter anymore. This entire discussion is very needed and I very much respect the points of view some of you have posted.
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:39 PM   #1054 
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There pretty much has to be some sort of dominance on either side to spawn though... In bettas, often that comes across as fighting. It's the same as a lot of animals, just usually more violent in bettas. Minimizing damage is important though, as you said.

I'm glad we all agree that fighting animals is wrong.
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:11 AM   #1055 
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Cool 1~

As of today I have officially been a member of this forum for a full year. Wow. I can't believe the things I've learned, the friends I've made, and the addiction that I have been dug/dug myself into.

I've gone from... 3(?) fish to thirty-ish with two active spawns and one in the (very) near future, and no plans to stop, only to expand. I started with three tanks and two (inappropriate) betta tanks and now have too many tanks and jars to count. That being said, it hasn't been easy... I've gone through a couple major disease scares, and have had to learn how to put fish down and unfortunately use that skill more frequently then I would like.

I've posted six thousand three hundred seventy one times and have 17.45 posts per day. Wow.

The best part of this forum has definitely been the people, though. I've met so many nice people that share this hobby. I now know a few people who live (relatively) close to me, people who I have met personally a few times and got awesome fish and other things from. I think the best thing about that, though, is learning that there are people near me with the same interest and hobby. I've also been able to "meet" people who live thousands of miles away from me... This year I've talked about mycobacteria with a Texan show breeder, learned about breeding and genetics from someone in Indonesia, learned about some non-traditional and intriguing keeping and rearing methods for bettas and loads of information on planted tanks from another American, among other things. I know that this is pretty much the point of most forums... My experience here has been awesome in particular though.

I have lots of future plans which you are going to hear about here and there at some point. I can't believe it's been a year, and look forward to many more.
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:33 AM   #1056 
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Congrats on one year Matt!!
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Old 12-19-2013, 11:06 PM   #1057 
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Thanks Truong!

I got the three heaters I ordered a while ago. I got the spawn tank all set up, can't wait for tomorrow and the weekend.
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Old 12-19-2013, 11:30 PM   #1058 
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I've been away for a while, holidays, work, snow etc. I read up on this conversation about Elitebetta... and from what I am understanding he is apparently discarding/killing/culling weaker specimens or betta's that do not meet his criteria. It seems absolutely wrong to me, I mean I love my betta's for who they are the way they are and I'm sure they are far from perfect from a breeders point of view but I guess its all in the eyes of the beholder. Its not neccessarily playing god but its kind of genetically forcing them and bending them to one's will. One could argue survival of the fittest and that they fight each other anyways, but that's in nature and not work done by humans...

I grieve every time one of my betta's passes away and euthanizing my girl was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do... I suppose its all subject to opinion and personal views even beliefs. Anyways just thought I'd add my thought, congratulations on one year =)
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Old 12-20-2013, 12:41 AM   #1059 
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Thanks. He does cull a lot, and IMO that is the single worst part about his breeding because he brings lives into the world knowing full well that he will be killing a lot of them, but he has a lot of other... questionable practices as well, like the fin cutting for reasons not backed by any legitimate evidence, high prices, etc. He is someone who very obviously sees and treats animals as a commodity and nothing more- which animals should never be treated as. Treating animals as a commodity can be part of a breeders regimen, I certainly do it, but there has to be respect for the life. People lose their crap when they find out about a puppy mill, but honestly, if everyone truly valued life equally, they would be up in arms just as much if they found about fish breeders like elite's practices.

The other day he posted a reply to someone on facebook who asked for pictures of the mother of a spawn he had grown out, and he said it wasn't happening because he had already culled her. Ethics and morals of killing a healthy fish aside, that's either very poor record keeping on his part, not photographing the F0 fish, or he has something to hide.

Lol. The more I write the more I realize why I dislike him. Like I said before I totally respect him as a breeder, he has amazing fish and is quite successful, but his practices disgust me.

I'm excited. I get off tomorrow for winter break, will hopefully get another spawn... I'm happy hahaha.
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Old 12-20-2013, 10:55 AM   #1060 
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Good post Matt. I'm glad you got your heaters and are ready to do your spawn. It will be a Christmas spawn. Cookie and Jupiter are in a spawn tank again and I can only hope they can move on from being best friends to something more but trying not to get my hopes up as bubble nest seems impossible for that boy. I took your advice and ordered a bunch of heaters online too. Incredible how much cheaper they were compared to the stores here.
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