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Old 05-23-2013, 06:02 AM   #51 
jaysee
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Well then by that rational we can just keep them in the cups in which they are sold. As long as they are safe from predators..... So what if a fish can't turn around, as long as it is fed and not in danger of being eaten.

There's a sticky on the forum about the myth of bettas living in mud holes.

Too, there are A LOT of things in life that are done differently now, versus "how they always used to". Lots of views have changed too. "It's what we've always done" only gets you so far....


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Old 05-23-2013, 06:19 AM   #52 
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I said safe from predators and free of diseases which also requires good water quality. This can be achieved in a bare minimum tank. A cup is not a bare minimum and I doubt youll find anyone here who thinks it is

Just because some things are done differently now doesn't mean traditional ways are wrong.
The people who domesticated bettas were able to have fighters recover from serious damage and those same fish will still be strong and healthy enough to fight another fight. Unhealthy, poor conditions would result in disease especially to a severely wounded fish.
I think if hundreds of years of successful keeping in jars has worked without fail and the fish are still healthy enough to breed and fight then that method obviously works perfectly.
Don't fix what isnt broken
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Old 05-23-2013, 06:44 AM   #53 
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Like I had said before, how breeders do things is a matter of financial feasibility, just as it is for fish stores.

In your post you say it's not good enough to keep them in a cup, but it is good enough to keep them in a mason jar. Seems quite contradictory if you ask me.


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Old 05-23-2013, 06:45 AM   #54 
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Whilst all that is true and unavoidable for breeders, does it follow that it's right for hobbyists to do the same? We all know that bettas are curious species that thrive with interaction and appear to very much "enjoy", insofar as a fish can enjoy things, extra space. Good water quality is another one of those bare minimum requirements - if a hobbyist has the space, which is applicable to pretty much all the members here who aren't breeding, why not give the betta the chance to have the best possible life - i.e. space in which to be mentally enriched as well as physically healthy?
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:27 AM   #55 
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This discussion has ranged widely and covered some very useful ground. The initial point was, if I remember, frequency of water changes.

Two considerations that are rarely brought up in these and related threads:

---The importance of minimizing DOC and TDS/TSS. Besides ammonia, the decomposition of feces, food and dying plants injects dissolved organic compounds into the water. This is not filtered out, nor is it converted to anything else.

---Total dissolved solids include the above, but also minerals, chemicals and anything that you put into the tank besides water, and anything that's in the water that you put into your tank.

Both of these parameters are difficult to quantify without specialized equipment.

Also important is re-mineralization. Livestock and plants use a quantity of certain minerals, most of which need to be replenished through regular water changes.

More experienced keepers than I have addressed this subject more capably.
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...uarium-122027/

And, especially:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...hanges-117205/

Last edited by Hallyx; 05-23-2013 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:57 AM   #56 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysee View Post
Like I had said before, how breeders do things is a matter of financial feasibility, just as it is for fish stores.

In your post you say it's not good enough to keep them in a cup, but it is good enough to keep them in a mason jar. Seems quite contradictory if you ask me.


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Not really, the cups are much smaller than jars. Please remember that jars come in various sizes. A mason jar with good water quality is good for a betta. Although many fish are sold as pets so the jars are only temporary homes, bear in mind that breeders dont sell all of their fish. A few pairs are kept and often kept in the jars for their lives. Is this horrid cruelty? Should the breeder keep all their breeding fish in their own 10G tanks too?

Quote:
Whilst all that is true and unavoidable for breeders, does it follow that it's right for hobbyists to do the same? We all know that bettas are curious species that thrive with interaction and appear to very much "enjoy", insofar as a fish can enjoy things, extra space. Good water quality is another one of those bare minimum requirements - if a hobbyist has the space, which is applicable to pretty much all the members here who aren't breeding, why not give the betta the chance to have the best possible life - i.e. space in which to be mentally enriched as well as physically healthy?
I agree with this to a point. How do we know what a betta needs to be mentally enriched? Another view on it could be that since bettas are highly territorial does this mean a bigger tank would put stress on a fish since it means a bigger territory to maintain? Is the betta constantly running around his big tank thinking "I have to check here for intruders! and now here!" Its much easier to defend a small tank than a big one.
We'll never know how a betta feels about tank size unless someone writes some papers on it. I suppose you could test it by measuring life span or measuring stress hormones in fish raised in small vs big tanks with exact same water contidtions. Would be pretty interesting to do actually

I think a 2.5g (the bare recommended min) is a very reasonable size for a person looking for a single pet. Add some plants and your betta will be perfectly happy(or what we perceive as happy). I had a betta that panicked in my big tank and felt much more secure in a small tank. Bigger is not always better for bettas infact anything over 60L for a single fish IMO is overkill
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:48 AM   #57 
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A jar may be 2 or 3 times bigger than a cup, but 2-3 times a very small number is still a pretty small number. A jar might as well be a cup when compared to a 2.5 - 5 gallon tank.

I still don't think it's appropriate to use what breeders and fish stores do as a measure of what hobbyist should do.


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Old 05-24-2013, 10:09 PM   #58 
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Quote:
More experienced keepers than I have addressed this subject more capably.
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...uarium-122027/

And, especially:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...hanges-117205/
thanks for the links they were very informative :)
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