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Old 05-20-2013, 04:18 PM   #11 
Skyewillow
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omg, I love her colors though! To me, she's even more beautiful because she's not perfect. And I know I'm encouraging them when I buy fish like this, but this fish could still have a good life, and I hate the idea that they would be wasted by culling. I'd rather have them all so I could admire them every day.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:27 PM   #12 
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Skyewillow, I wasn't trying to offend - we like what we like, I like veiltails. I've just noticed there is a lot of talk about rescuing here and wanted to make the point to other readers.

Fenghuang, I totally disagree. One person, maybe not, but one person is just as much apart of everyone as is anyone else, and if EVERYONE refused, then there's no longer be a problem.
How do you get to the goal of everyone?
One person at a time.

My Walmart got in one shipment of bettas. Just one.
Did I see them? Yes.

Did my heart go out to them? Yes, poor pitiful little things, stressed and cold with no food and barely any water.

Did I want to rescue them? Of course! I'm not heartless!!

Did I buy one? No and heck no. I complained. I complained loudly and to everyone who would listen "Oh, would you look at that, such a SHAME. Live animals uncared for on a shelf!" I stopped people in the pet aisle to point out how Walmart didn't care if live animals suffered so long as they made a buck. I filed a complaint with management. Heck, I spoke out at the local church (I live in a very religious area) about how a righteous man takes care of his beast.
I kicked up a fuss, and made other people kick up a fuss.

Sadly, most of those single shipment of 20 or so bettas died. And I felt really, really bad about that. But there are no bettas to rescue in my local Walmart. No sad little cups on the shelves.
One person made a stink, and then another, and then another and then EVERYONE made a stink and there was no money in it and now it's gone.

So yes, Fenghuang, it DOES make a difference. And if one person made a point to write to say, an Aquabid seller about how if THAT is the kind of fish that they're charging so much money for, the rest of their stock must be over-priced and poor quality as well and you weren't going to buy ANY fish from them, and then that person followed through and didn't buy, and then was sure to TELL people what they'd done, next thing you know - a 2nd person would do the same thing. And then a 3rd, and a 4th, and soon EVERYONE would do it, and you wouldn't see fish like that anymore.

Not only CAN one person make a difference - but that is the only way that a difference is ever made.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:38 PM   #13 
MattsBettas
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Riverotter, I completely disagree with you. Have you ever considered the difference it made to that fish? If we all went by your logic then we would all be boycotting all petstores that sell bettas and we would only be buying off of sellers that have only ever bred and sold perfect fish. Topline issues are almost 100% genetic. Buying one sad fish is not going to save all of the other sad fish or stop a breeder from breeding sad fish, I'm sorry.

Also, remember that "cull" does not only mean kill. I wish there was some way to spay/neuter a fish sometimes lol.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:42 PM   #14 
lilnaugrim
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Lol, right there with you Matt for the spay/neuter haha
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:57 PM   #15 
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Yes, of course I considered the difference it made to the fish,it breaks my heart, and I'm not saying that a bad topline is the end of the world, or that bettas should never be sold in petstores - plenty of petstores do a fine job.

;) I have a farm, I am well aware of what cull means. I'm also well aware that it is only a tiny percentage of bettas that get bred.

The difference is, if you only ever think of the individual fish, you will create a huge glut of fish to rescue. You can't save every deformed fish, every walmart fish dying in an inch of water in a cup, etc. Neither can I.
But we can make sure that those conditions cease to happen and that the only ones that need rescuing are the ones who were truly an "Ooops, it happens, not everything is born perfect" scenario, not a "Well, I can sell it anyway, so who cares?" like happens now.

Is it sad for the individual - yes, very. Do you know what stops me from total breakdown - the fact that no part of it is my fault. I am not only not any link in the chain, I'm trying to stop it.

And it CAN be stopped. Did you know, in the NE, they have so many great spay/neuter programs for dogs and such a wealth of pet education that there aren't enough dogs in shelters for everyone that wants to adopt? That there are shelters who truck puppies up from places in the south where such programs are NOT in place?
Please, don't believe me - look it up.
Here, I'll help; http://www.northeastanimalshelter.or...across-america ~ I'm sure you can find more links from there.

I rescue dogs. There is a puppy mill literally a half mile away from me. We can hear the barking from our house. A part of me would love to go and make a difference for each pup, even if it means buying it.

But I know that if I really, truly care, that I won't. I'll look into those sweet brown eyes and say "I'm so sorry. I was not responsible for what was done to you, and I'm trying to make it stop". And then I will try to educate the owner, I will tell everyone who will listen (and plenty that wont) about the responsible way to buy a pup. I'll lobby and rally and volunteer and donate for spay/neuter and educational programs. And I'll try to get everyone else to.
If I work very hard at it, and get other people to work very hard at it, then someday, my state will be like MA, with more rescuers then rescuees.

And if bettas are your passion, you can too.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:59 PM   #16 
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What I mean is, Rivertrotter, one person looking at a deformed animal for sale and turning away is not going to make difference. You need unity. You need numbers. You need to give feedback. In numbers.

And that is an uphill battle. Think of puppy mills. Or the millions of animals that get euthanized in shelters each year. Many people have made the decision to not support puppy mills and many more have done the responsible thing and gotten their pets spayed and neutered. But at the end of the day, are there still puppy mills? Are there still millions of animals waiting to find forever homes that probably won't?

At the end of the day, not everyone is going to go through the effort. Not everyone is going to have the will to turn away a cute squirming puppy in one of those done up "puppy boutiques." Not everyone is going to spay and neuter their pets. Or they don't care to. Go on Youtube and read all the ignorant comments on Spay/Neuter PSAs where people say spaying and neutering is cruel and they would never subject their pets to such "barbaric practices."

I'm not saying that you are in the wrong. You have proactively taken steps to raise awareness about gross mistreatment of animals and I applaud you for that. But it is much too idealistic to make it out to be something as simple as "just say 'no'."

EDIT: You posted before I responded, Rivertrotter, but the last part of my comment stands.

Last edited by Fenghuang; 05-20-2013 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:05 PM   #17 
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Thank you Fenghuang. And maybe it is idealistic, but maybe it's just how you look at it.

It is easy to look out at a crowd and see a crowd. It is harder to look out and see that the crowd is made up of many, just-one-persons.

If we ALL say "it's only one, it doesn't make a difference", then we create the problem we're trying to solve.

But for us to ALL "just say no" we have to each of us, all alone, every time, just say no, over and over again.
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:05 PM   #18 
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Thumbs up

Also, remember that "cull" does not only mean kill. I wish there was some way to spay/neuter a fish sometimes lol.[/quote]

Matt what else does cull mean ? I too only thought it meant to kill. Spay and neuter a fish oh yeah wish that was possible...lol


All very good points I am sure this conversation will give us all something to think about and try to decide which point of view works best for each of us. There is no right or wrong answer to the issue. I myself have never really thought about any of this before so thanks everyone, I would have to think long and hard the this time I bought a Betta as to where I wanted to buy or who I wanted to buy one from.
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:18 PM   #19 
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Culling a fish could also be simply keeping them as just pets and not breeding them. However, there is no real guarantee that fish with horrendous genes won't be bred if they get sold or rehomed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverotter View Post
Thank you Fenghuang. And maybe it is idealistic, but maybe it's just how you look at it.

It is easy to look out at a crowd and see a crowd. It is harder to look out and see that the crowd is made up of many, just-one-persons.

If we ALL say "it's only one, it doesn't make a difference", then we create the problem we're trying to solve.

But for us to ALL "just say no" we have to each of us, all alone, every time, just say no, over and over again.
Like I said beforehand, maybe I am jaded and cynical. I do agree with a lot of what you are saying and I do sincerely hope you achieve everything you wish to achieve. Not many people can look beyond themselves and their immediate wants and needs.
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:19 PM   #20 
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Persuesumom, cull means to remove from the gene pool.

As I said, I have a farm, I raise dairy goats and poultry. One of my goats is a cull. She has a 3rd teat. Her breeder tore up her papers and gave her away to someone she knew would be responsible (me) and never sell her offspring (as, to give milk, she does need to be bred, but I will "milk through" so there are as few offspring as possible and never sell any) and there will never, ever be any registered Nubian goats from this doe.
She is a cull.

Every dog or cat who has been nutered is, technically, culled. They will not pass those genes on.

Ninety nine percent of bettas are culled - all it means is they were sold to a wholesaler or pet home, and not to another breeder.
;) Unlike barn cats, you don't have to save them from being bred (my "barn" cats are all fixed, sleep inside at night, and live to ripe old ages) Bettas are difficult to breed, and it's about impossible to do it by accident.

So actually, cull means kill far less often then most folks think.
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