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Old 07-06-2013, 12:18 PM   #1 
Flapmon
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Weird, right?

So I have this weird dilemma... Two betta's share one tank. The water is perfect from what the tests say but it seems one of them is reacting badly .. i.e Fin rot, bloating and now the case of "cloudy eye" or some type of clear film over the eye. I don't want to treat him just yet because some days he looks completely fine and then the next this happens, he was also treated with tri-sulfa recently so I don't want to burden him more with new toxins.

Any ideas?

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Old 07-06-2013, 12:23 PM   #2 
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try removing him, and doing warmer water, with more water changes
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Old 07-07-2013, 01:48 AM   #3 
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It's not uncommon...diseases are in every fish tank. Whether a fish gets sick is like a person...the immune system means not everyone gets ill when exposed.

From what you described, the fish will not get better on its own. Treatment with something like nitrofuracin green (you can mix it yourself) is much easier on fish than things like salt or snake oil..I mean MelaFix and it actually does something. Also, what you described could mean a protozoa that transmits easily and so treating both fish should be done. Today's medications...well, the good ones, are extremely safe and easy-going on fish, and many are even easy-going on biofilters. Rather than using salt as a go-to, using nitrofuracin green makes perfect sense.
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:12 PM   #4 
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Originally Posted by Flapmon View Post
So I have this weird dilemma... Two betta's share one tank. The water is perfect from what the tests say but it seems one of them is reacting badly .. i.e Fin rot, bloating and now the case of "cloudy eye" or some type of clear film over the eye. I don't want to treat him just yet because some days he looks completely fine and then the next this happens, he was also treated with tri-sulfa recently so I don't want to burden him more with new toxins.

Any ideas?

No photos.
Have you tried Epsom salt? ES will help with the bloating and "might" help with the cloudy eye. You do not want to use aquarium salt if he is bloating. Aquarium salt will encourage the retention of fluid in the body (which is bad if they already are bloated). ES is much more gentle on their system and encourages the release of fluid, and also acts as a mild laxative.

Are you positive it is fin rot? Are you sure he is not biting his fins? Either way, I would recommend Stress Coat +. Double the dosage for treatment. It is also gentle on them, and will help with the encouragement of health tissue growth on his fins.

Both ES and Stress Coat are fine to use with him now. They really are gentle methods for treatment. I also like Indian Almond Leaves if you can get your hands on some.

I would recommend staying away from anything with "fix" in it as it may coat the labyrinth organ which allows him to breath.
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:24 PM   #5 
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Either way, I would recommend Stress Coat +. Double the dosage for treatment.
I am guessing when you say double you mean the stronger dosing that the bottle advises and not double that dosing. Just in case tho, doubling the dosage on any additive or medication beyond dosing instructions is not advisable...especially if you are talking about smaller tanks, that can do a lot more harm than good. Additives are not necessarily tested extensively at higher than dosing levels and in the case of some additives, the LD50 (lethal dosage that kills exactly 50%) is not much higher than than therapeutic dosing. Many fish have seen their demise this way from MelaFix.
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:26 PM   #6 
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I am guessing when you say double you mean the stronger dosing that the bottle advises and not double that dosing. Just in case tho, doubling the dosage on any additive or medication beyond dosing instructions is not advisable...especially if you are talking about smaller tanks, that can do a lot more harm than good. Additives are not necessarily tested extensively at higher than dosing levels and in the case of some additives, the LD50 (lethal dosage that kills exactly 50%) is not much higher than than therapeutic dosing. Many fish have seen their demise this way from MelaFix.
Stress Coat + tells you to double the dosage when treating illness. This is not my first rodeo.

ETA: Stress Coat + is a water conditioner. It recommends doubling the dosage of the recommendation for water conditioning for treatment of external tissue problems.

Last edited by NeptunesMom; 07-07-2013 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:50 PM   #7 
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Stress Coat + tells you to double the dosage when treating illness. This is not my first rodeo.

ETA: Stress Coat + is a water conditioner. It recommends doubling the dosage of the recommendation for water conditioning for treatment of external tissue problems.

You may choose to look into this further, or to believe API's ridiculous marketing, but please don't take what I say to be fact but rather reason for inquiry and skepticism.

If you have had fish make a comeback and you think it is due to Stress Coat, I strongly disagree the Stress Coat is why. The comeback is because YOU the fishkeeper did great fishkeeping by giving a fish the conditions he/she needed to activate their immune system so they could get better. That credit goes to you, not aloe vera. In sum, Aloe's medicinal properties with small quantity dosing via a bath on fish with outer membranes and immune systems that differ from ours is sketchy.

In detail, the healing potential of aloe vera for fish is very debatable. It's affect on gill function, especially at higher doses, is possible and with smaller tanks, more possible given the complexities of dosing and tendency for DO levels to quickly flatline in tanks that are small without aeration. I have not ever seen any indication that aloe expedites healing any more so than clean water, and with proven and trusted medications used for the purposes of healing physical damage and preventing secondary infections, I do not understand it's recommendation in usage beyond the purpose of standard water treatment. I've personally rubbed aloe into sores on koi and compared to nothing, salt, MelaFix, and a few common mediations made into a paste and observed differences in outcomes. Stress Coat treats water to remove chlorines and chloramines plus detoxifies a few heavy metals, and that's about it as far as what it is proven to do. The rest is speculative. Fish make a comeback due to incredible immune systems capable of surviving incredible injury when given good care. Tons of fishkeepers credit Stress Coat for saving their fish when the Stress Coat did no more or less than any other conditioner and it was the person who saved the fish.

Is Stress Coat safe when used as directed? Almost surely...it's used a ton and I used to use a lot of when I got it for free or dirt cheap from API vendors. Does it do anything beyond treating water? There is very little evidence to suggest this. Prime neutralizes ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate and detoxifies more heavy metals as do a few other conditioners. Stress Coat does not do any of that, costs more, and only treats like 1/10th of the water Prime does ML-per-ML. Since ammonia is the biggest single roadblock to healing from any illness, the single-most cause of fish death, and given how common ammonia is in QT/smaller tanks, I consider Prime to be the prime choice to promote healing if only a water conditioner is used.

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...t.php?sid=2760
http://www.fishgeeks.com/tropicalfis...pic.php?t=5687


One thing about Stress Coat, Prime, and all other water conditioners, however, is that there is no evidence that suggests that they treat illness caused by disease, nor do they prevent secondary infection when a fish is vulnerable due to a compromised immune system. Like many API products, it's been hyped up as being able to do things it has not been proven to do with great marketing and really pretty labels and graphics of happy fish.

API (Mars) also makes MelaFix, which is perhaps the worst additive made for freshwater fish since salt, which API also makes and markets as capable of doing things it most certainly can not and does not treat/prevent. They took MelaFix, and knowing damn well that use of the product in small tanks without aeration kills fish changed a few levels of insignificant ingredients to get a patent, and created BettaFix, which is essentially death-in-a-bottle employees push on people who do not realize how bad it is. They also have tons of ridiculously expensive powder packet medications that are far less effective and far less safe than the rest of the world, and they utilize a nice box rather than modern medication. API makes some good products but they also make some snake oils and advertise their products as being capable of doing things they most certainly cannot...there is a noticeable trend in terms of company ethics of API marketing which fishkeepers are finally calling out their bluffs. Stress Coat isn't bad, but what API advocates it being capable of is completely unproven and IMHO should be approached very, very skeptically.

What one makes of this post is completely up to them, but for anyone with a sick fish, I will always advocate for the usage of proven modern treatments over ones of potentially questionable effectiveness for the welfare of the fish.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:17 PM   #8 
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I believe it works in helping promote the growth of healthy tissue. I do not believe it is magic, but I have noticed fish I use Stress Coat on do see regrowth faster than fish I do not use it with. It's not overnight, but fast enough I feel to warrant a continued use. I am skeptical, I work in academia so I do question everything and do not just accept things at face value. I have an MBA in Marketing so I understand marketing, and the gimmicks that go into it. I also work part time in a pet store (good discount when you have 8 dogs to feed who all eat Wellness), and no I do not recommend "bettafix" to anyone. I also do not recommend Prime unless people have an ammonia problem. I have seen enough posts on here of fish acting strange after using Prime to keep me from suggesting it needlessly. I do have some Prime myself on hand in case my tap water ever tests at anything but zero.

I have had the best luck treating with aquarium salt, Epsom salt, Indian Almond leaves, and Stress Coat. I rescue the sick fish from my store, and my rate of survival is far greater than the rate that pass. I have hundreds of dollars of antibiotics on hand, but I prefer AQ salt, ES, IAL, and SC+. You may not agree with my method, but it works for me. You will also find that a good portion of people on this forum also advocate for the use of Stress Coat when dealing with fin problems.
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:18 PM   #9 
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I believe it works in helping promote the growth of healthy tissue. I do not believe it is magic, but I have noticed fish I use Stress Coat on do see regrowth faster than fish I do not use it with. It's not overnight, but fast enough I feel to warrant a continued use. I am skeptical, I work in academia so I do question everything and do not just accept things at face value. I have an MBA in Marketing so I understand marketing, and the gimmicks that go into it. I also work part time in a pet store (good discount when you have 8 dogs to feed who all eat Wellness), and no I do not recommend "bettafix" to anyone. I also do not recommend Prime unless people have an ammonia problem. I have seen enough posts on here of fish acting strange after using Prime to keep me from suggesting it needlessly. I do have some Prime myself on hand in case my tap water ever tests at anything but zero.

I have had the best luck treating with aquarium salt, Epsom salt, Indian Almond leaves, and Stress Coat. I rescue the sick fish from my store, and my rate of survival is far greater than the rate that pass. I have hundreds of dollars of antibiotics on hand, but I prefer AQ salt, ES, IAL, and SC+. You may not agree with my method, but it works for me. You will also find that a good portion of people on this forum also advocate for the use of Stress Coat when dealing with fin problems.
Your skill in fishkeeping is where the fish’s health is coming from. The care, affection, and good environment is where the biggest gain is coming from by-far. Not the salt or Stress Coat as both have a minimal affect.

People advocate Stress Coat and salt because they are unaware of things like nitrofuracin green, nor the research on salt, which shows the potential for organ damage as well as how many of the parasites once easily treated with salt or salt baths have become immune to levels once effective. I wrote for a publication on health, illness, and disease. I kept micro (10 gallon) to massive (over 1,000 gallon) systems running for clients and treated diseases on-site and at our facility. I consulted for a few pet stores and a pond store. I bred a variety of fish including discus, loaches, and plecos…all of which are the most delicate of delicate tropical fish. I would treat multiple tanks with fish of the same diseases side-by-side with different treatments to compare effectiveness to see what does and what does not work better than plain clean water. Our survival rate for sickness was second-to-none largely thanks to TMP sulfa, doxycycline, kanamycin, quinine sulfate, metronidazole, praziquental, griseofulvin, acriflavine, and nitrofurazone mixes…those newer meds treated almost 100% of issues we encountered with incredible success and safety.

Many people on forms also say that certain diseases are essentially fatal, which I disagree with 100% based on my own treatment of these diseases and my own treatments are based on treatment protocols made by the foremost experts in the field. Today’s antibiotics, antifungals, and antiparasitics are safer than salt and more effective. Many are used on a variety of animals every day with success and have incredible empirical backing of effectiveness. Yesterday’s medications are not today’s medications. As you yourself noted, you do not advise BettaFix. Have you read the label? API hypes it up as if it could cure everything from the common cold to cancer. They do that with other products too, such as what they do (or at least did) plaster on their jugs of salt. Their hype makes almost all of their product claims suspect.
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:04 PM   #10 
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I don't want to hijack this thread, so this'll be my last post on it regarding this. But, while I thank you for saying I have fishkeeping skills that contribute to my fish being healthy, I will still continue to do things the way I always have and recommend that way to others. I do know about the research on aquarium salt, and I do not recommend it's use except in cases of moderate to severe external problems. I also never recommend it's use for more than 10 days. As for Epsom salt, I don't see how it couldn't work. It works as a laxative and removes fluid from the human body so why not a fish? Those are the only two salts I ever recommend.

Having family members in the healthcare field and biological sciences (I am not, I'm in the social sciences). I am very wary of the overuse of antibiotics. I believe we over medicate. I believe we are doing a disservice by overusing antibiotics to future generations who will be left to deal with antibiotic resistant organisms. I believe in the precautionary principal, and I see it applying here.

ETA: You clearly have a lot of knowledge about medications so I think you will be a great source of information for people who are interested in going the route you prefer.

Last edited by NeptunesMom; 07-07-2013 at 10:11 PM.
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