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Old 07-08-2013, 05:16 AM   #1 
Deanna01
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"What if you bred..." thread

Many of us here would love to learn more about the genetics of color and finnage transmission and what one might expect from breeding certain pairs. This seems to be a common question on this board, and I think it would be useful to have an entire thread of such questions and see what the pros had to say about what to expect, as it would help those of us newer to the hobby to learn.

New breeders are curious about the transmission of colors, patterns, and tail types--and of course want to avoid faults that they might not otherwise see. If you respond, can you provide rough percentages of colors, patterns, etc., and the reasons one could expect them?

Thank you so much to any pros who choose to respond to this thread. You are doing new breeders a big service!
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:21 AM   #2 
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If I may, I will start the thread off with a pair I am contemplating on Aquabid this morning. I will bid on them if the experts think the results would be favorable.



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Old 07-08-2013, 08:20 AM   #3 
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Breeders: If any of you would like to post pictures of spawns you've done, with what the results were and why, that would be enormously useful, as well. The main goal of this thread is to give beginning breeders information that will help them make their own good breeding choices without having to ask about each potential match.
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:55 AM   #4 
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The female has terrible form as foes the male I would not choose these for breeding
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:04 AM   #5 
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We will need a few hints, like is he a dragon, a marble, etc. Better yet, what is his background. I don't trust pictures because they don't always give the fish justice or the opposite, good lighting will make the betta brighter. And light angles can show different color reflections.

I'm guessing he is a blue dragon marble. Looks as if he was a result of regular x dragon cross - at least 2 generations before him. The cellophane implies he also has cambodian background. I could be wrong.

The female too seems to be of similar background. She is possibly his sibling. She is showing white as well as cellophane. This could mean anything. I doubt she has opaque background though. I'm guessing more to a fancy background.

Color probabilities would include; royal blue (probably very few solid), fancy mixes, cellophane, maybe cambodian (highly dependent on background - how far along the line was cambodian introduced). Any of which could be partial dragons.

Fin wise; both are 4 ray, round edged caudal. The male has big enough fins but the female has rather small dorsal. You will only have few 180* HM (rounded edge). Most should be SDeT. I have never taken notice on body form results, so I'd rather not comment on that. Dorsals should lean back. If lucky (if hidden in the background) you might get upright dorsals but the chances are very slim.

Last edited by indjo; 07-08-2013 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:27 AM   #6 
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That's very useful, both of you! I will not bid on them. Do either of you have spawns whose results you would like to share, as well as information on why the results were that way, whether expected or not?
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:48 AM   #7 
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They are very very cute ^^ love their colors.. I'm one of those that would try them just to see what I would get and work on that - as mentioned above, they would need lots of work - but it may pay off in the end. The only factor you don't know about is the parents of these, etc. May have a hidden surprise.. The only reason I would attempt them is because I have people, such as a wholeseller who sells to stores and individuals that would take any offspring I couldn't sell off my hands for a great deal. That's why I do a lot of "lets see what I get" spawns :)
But if these two were coming from overseas then I wouldn't spend the money on them.. only if they came from a breeder within the States, as the cost may not be efficient for how many generations it would take to clean them up.

Unfortunately most of the time breeders don't know the background of the fish they are getting when they buy on AB, Ebay, etc.. an F2 from a line I am working on has thrown out a ton of doubletail genes.. the father, a dragon, coming from an IBC judge/breeder from Thailand, the female from a local breeder who told me she didn't have any DT genes - but the F2 from that original spawn thrown out 3 actual DTs and 95% with the wide DT dorsal and a few with the typical DT body.
So even when you think you know the background of some fish you will usually get a surprise thrown in at some point.

So unfortunately all you can get is an educated guess... we can say "You may get a few ___ or you may get some of this color", but you can end up spawning them and get something completely different.

I think the spawn that surprised me the most was my white dragon with red fins x AOC/multi cambodian - all different cambodians with all different colors fins and a variety of colors of cellophane layering on the body and some grizzles thrown in, etc. Just a hodgepodge of colors.. and then the F2 ended up being most DT/DT genes.. this line is throwing out some fun surprises :)
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:54 AM   #8 
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I don't have a good camera so I can't really share pictures.

One spawn I'd like to share is green (LfS - unknown genetics but all displayed were green) x turquoise with red wash (irid background - like for ever. I've been looking at his results for 2 years) = wild type colors both blue and green base (only a few), solid royal blue, royal blue with red wash, turquoise, solid copper (majority), platinum (solid and red wash), cellophane. . . . I lost most of them due to unstable water source, so I can't really say which outcome was actually dominant and to what percentage. All I know is copper made up about 50%.

This defies all theory. So don't ask me to explain why. LOL

This is the best I could do.
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Last edited by indjo; 07-08-2013 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:39 PM   #9 
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Indjo and Myates, that is all great information. Thank you! Indjo, that does seem like interesting results for that match! Myates, could you expand on why the DT gene isn't desirable? The pair I am trying to spawn right now is a green marble (butterfly) HM DS to a green marble DT DS (both shown below). Is this a bad idea? If so, they have not spawned yet, and I could always remove her and try him with a different female.
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:38 AM   #10 
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DT gene is not undesired. But it is very rare to produce DT without DT/geno parents. Myates' result also defies theory. That's what's interesting about the spawn/fry.

I don't see why you shouldn't breed the above pair. You could improve his dorsal with DT genes - hoping the rays will branch like the caudal. Just don't breed DT to DT more than once. Always breed DT to a single tail to avoid possible deformities.
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