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Old 10-04-2013, 02:54 PM   #11 
Sakura8
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Elk Grove, California
Poo is good and also a sign that he's not constipated. :) The downside is things are starting to look more like a kidney infection. For this, I'd suggest treating with Seachem Kanaplex, a broad spectrum antibiotic that absorbs well to treat internal infections. Unfortunately, this med is hard to locate in stores and usually has to be ordered online. amazon.com or Pet Supplies | Dog & Cat Supplies, Pet Meds | DrsFosterSmith.com Pet Products both carry it.

If ordering online is not an option, another possibility is treating with API General Cure which can be found at Petsmart. This is an antiparisitic but the medication in it, metronidazole, can be effective in treating some anaerobic internal bacterial infections, especially when given via food. To make medicated food, just soak some of his food in medicated water. That's the easiest way to do it.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:00 PM   #12 
eat6298
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Kanaplex is out of stock at Drs Foster and Smith until 10/14 and way overpriced on amazon. I already have some API General Cure so I guess I will start with that.

I've read that it's usually good to both soak the food and treat the water so I will try that.

First I'll take out the filter cartridge because it has carbon in it. He's in a 5 gallon container now, so I'll mix up a half dose with some water, soak the food, make sure he eats, then pour the rest in. Let me know if any of this isn't correct or I missed a step!
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:45 PM   #13 
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Nope, that sounds right! Although, if you have any live plants, snails, or shrimp, you may want to remove them.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:28 PM   #14 
eat6298
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I'm treating him in a separate tank so no worries there.

I did the second and final dose of General Cure tonight. Haven't noticed any changes. If this is a bacterial infection and the metronidazole can treat it, any idea how long it would take to notice a difference? There's obviously SOMETHING in there, so I'm curious if this will all clear up somehow and how long that might take. Since his behavior and eating habits haven't changed I am a little discouraged by the fact that it might be really difficult to determine if a certain treatment has worked or not.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:31 PM   #15 
Sakura8
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It could take a week or more and the metro may not have any effect if the bacteria isn't anaerobic. You can continue with the General Cure for up to two weeks. Sometimes it takes more treatments than they say on the packaging.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:33 PM   #16 
eat6298
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good to know, thank you!
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:46 AM   #17 
eat6298
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There have been some weird developments here and I wanted to share with everyone and possibly get some advice.

Be warned, these pictures are a bit nasty.

Since I last posted, I treated for another couple days with the general cure, but didn't notice any changes. He seemed to be a little bored, so feeling discouraged about actually medicating him without really having any clue as to what is going on, I moved him back to the main tank.

He has continued to act completely normal for the past two months in the main tank, but the lump has been very slowly growing. Finally, 3 - 5 days ago, it opened up. When I saw this (I was out of town for two days and my brother was feeding him, but not very observant so I'm not exactly sure how long) I set up the quarantine tank and put him in there. I added aquarium salt as I've read that it helps with wounds and healing.

When I was moving him, I very gently touched the area to try to figure out what the mass contained. It was complete mush, and a very small chunk and some scales came off. It seems this is just completely necrotic tissue, it has a gray color.

Here's two pictures of when I first found the opening and moved him:





In the photo lit from behind, you can see that there is a normal transparent spot where the dark mass has opened up.

So, he's been living for days like this now. His color is not good, but he's still very interested in food.

More scales and tissue has been falling off, and this is what it looks like now:



This picture makes the tissue look slightly pink, but it is definitely not, it is a white/gray color.



I feel like many people would tell me to euthanize him, as he's definitely struggling, but the fact that he's been alive this long, and that there's not any bleeding, or organs pushing out, makes me feel like maybe this is something he could recover from once all the dead/infected material comes off (BUT I have no experience with this kind of thing).

So like I said, I'm keeping his water super clean, and treating with aquarium salt. My next move was going to be to get an anti-bacterial to treat him with, which should help the wound heal. Also, from my very limited knowledge, maybe this is more sign of a bacterial infection? If this is a good idea, which anti-bacterial should I use?

Thank you for your help.
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:36 PM   #18 
eat6298
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I just remembered the Kanaplex, I guess I should try that out?
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Old 12-07-2013, 05:24 PM   #19 
Sakura8
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Hi eat. Wow. I'm honestly not sure what to say as I have no clue at all what that lump could have been. Possibly a fatty tumor or growth? A lymphocystis lump UNDER the skin? Possibly repercussions from mycobacteria granulomas on the spine? Absolutely no idea. But the good news is that it does seem to be all dead tissue and the fact that it burst means his body is trying to get rid of it and heal. My biggest concern now is infection; with an open wound like that, it's almost inevitable no matter how clean the water is. I would go ahead with Kanaplex and also add API Stress Coat and/or Kordon Fish Protector to the water along with 1 tsp of AQ salt per gallon.

The most encouraging sign to me is that he still wants to eat. If you feel comfortable with giving him a chance to fight, then treat him. Because he's eating, he obviously has some life in him.

However, because of the possibility of mycobacteria, be extremely careful to not cross-contaminate with any other fish you have. Get him his own equipment if you can and always wash your hands before doing anything with your other fish.

You're doing a great job with him, you two are both fighters so keep it up. :)
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:38 PM   #20 
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Wow. Totally forgot something I saw when I was first transferring the betta and researched it today. I think he has camallanus worms. I only saw one, and really wasn't even sure it was a worm, but now that i looked into I think that's definitely what it was. I have never seen any signs of callamanus before, and don't see anything like it on any of my neon's in the community tank.

It was only one long worm protruding from the betta's anus, not the "paintbrush" thing some people see. I just kind of hoped it was poop and was distracted by the gaping hole forming in his side. When I put him in the quarantine tank I immediately treated with some General Cure and Aquarium Salt in the hopes that would ward off some bacteria from the wound. Would it be possible this dose could have killed the worm? I haven't seen any sign of it since then, just remembered to google it today.

I read that these worms can be devastating to a tank and the the fish. When a worm is attached to the intestines it can cause injuries and bacteria buildup. Could this be what the tumor is? Just a buildup of infested tissue? That didn't actually affect his system enough to kill him already? I have no idea how that works, but it seems a viable answer. Also, the tumor has been growing for around 4 months though, could the worms have been in there for that long without me seeing anything on him or any other fish? I haven't added any new fish for around a year, but I did get two new snails over the summer, could they have carried larve? Or could it be a different type of worm than callamanus since it isn't really spreading around, I haven't seen any signs of all the babies sticking out of any of the fish, and the betta definitely hasn't had any other symptoms like not being able to poop, looking skinny and malnourished, etc? The one worm did look nearly identical to the ones on the finger in the first picture here: Camallanus Treatment - Use of Levamisole HCl

Ugh I'm so frustrated that I haven't seen any signs of this worm until now. Sakura, I read a thread where you had an infestation of them. How did that turn out? What medication ended up working?

Maybe I should start a new thread on the worms. It seems like it will definitely be a miracle if the little guy pulls through, his color is worse today, and his breathing seems difficult, more scales/dead tissue is falling off, BUT he stills wants food. Oh! I also haven't seen any poops since he has been in the new tank, which I'm guessing could be the worm but also could just be him struggling in general.

Any advice with this new info? Because he's hanging on by a thread, I'm guessing I should just keep focusing on the possibility of healing the open sore (has anyone actually seen this happen? this big of a booboo healing back up completely?), treating for bacteria, and then if he pulls through, dealing with the possible worm situation, which I'm sure will be a nightmare if it is all over the community tank since I have african dwarf frogs, snails, and shrimp. When/if the time comes,I may have access to some good deworming medications through the wildlife rehab place I volunteer for, we'll see.

I felt like there wasn't really enough time to order Kanaplex, so I just got some erythromycin from the pet store. I read on the erythromycin and tetracyclin boxes about open red sores, which can also have gray/dark spot type symptoms from narcotic tissue. I wasn't able to find any more information about this kind of symptom online related to open red sores though. Should I have gotten maracyn, maracyn 2, or tetracycline instead? Should I use multiple at once? I guess I can at least order some Kanaplex now and hope he lasts long enough to use the more effective medicine.

Right now he's got the erythomycin, stess coat, and aquarium salt in his water.

Should I fast him for the constipation or try some pea? Seeing him eat is the only reassuring thing I got, and he still seems super happy to get fed, so I'd rather not fast him. Is pea pretty gentle on their system? Certainly not any worse than being constipated is I guess?

Aw my poor baby. This is so crazy, and actually really interesting from a scientific/educational aspect, but definitely just sad at the moment.

And here's a pic update for anyone who's interested:



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