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Old 10-17-2013, 12:47 PM   #21 
wake49
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WhitneyLin, I agree with Hal here. If you are going to do a fishless cycle, don't transfer anything to the 5g until it is done. If you are going to put plants in the 5g, then cycle the filter in a bucket or another container that is not the display tank.

What is the filtration currently on the 2.5g?
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:50 PM   #22 
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Im sorry. Now im confused too. Okay, heres what I was told in the beginning (not by you):

"Since you have him in a 2.5 gallon and plan on getting a 5g with a filter, you can just do the cycle in the 5g tank and once its complete put him in there. Set it up completely, except for whats in his current tank, so there is a lot of surface area for bacteria."

So thats what I had originally planned to do. Then the whole no ammonia thing happened. But now that my mom finally agreed, I was planning on going back to what was originally going to happen.

And my plants are silk besides the two moss balls.

But thats not right? uggg *pulls hair out*

I guess that means I need to find a bucket and a place to put it then. Not sure where.. :\

I dont currently have a filter in the 2.5g. I do frequent water changes. I was going to get a sponge filter for it, but decided not to and got a bigger tank with a filter instead.

Last edited by WhitneyLin; 10-17-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:19 PM   #23 
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If you have a good number of LIVE plants to put in the 5 gallon, THEY take up the Ammonia in their processes and will help protect your Betta. You have 2 moss balls you said. Normally a tank fully planted does n`t have cycling issues.

If it were me.... I would set up the new 5 gal, load it with live plants, set up and attach the filter and heater and assuming the water temperatures match, and you have used de-chlor then I would move Betta to his new home. The filter will populate with good bacteria while the plants help to protect the Betta. Since it is not fully planted (2 moss balls) I would continue with the water changes daily if necessary to keep numbers down. A drop of Prime will neutralize anything in the new water and any issues in the 5 gallon tank`s water. Once the tank is cycled you will no longer have to tear down like you used to to clean everything. You will only do water changes to remove Nitrates.

Did you say if you have a liquid testing kit? They can be pricey but worth every penny.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:23 PM   #24 
wake49
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Here is the thing with bacteria:

It is tiny. Microscopic.

I keep a saltwater tank and cycling to me is dumping a bag of sand in the tank. Fine, sugar sized sand.

You know why we keep such small granules of sand? Because of surface area. This may be hard to grasp, but 5 lbs of sand has more surface area than 5 lbs of rock. Since the bacteria grows on the exterior of the rock (this is only for all intents and purposes. Different bacteria actually grow inside the rock.), a ball of rock would only have the exterior area covered. Same goes with sand, except every single grain of sand is covered on the exterior with bacteria, therefore the same ball of sand is flooded with bacteria throughout!

I digress for this reason: when I setup a new tank and have an existing tank, I steal bacteria. I seriously just move fish from one tank to another, as long as decorations, gravel and filters make a simultaneous move. The empty glass tank in no way "needs" to be cycled, unless everything is brandy-new in it. Bacteria are excellent movers. Cycling is essentially the cultivation of bacteria that wasn't necessarily present before.

So when Hal suggested the "fish-in" cycle, I think he figured that most of your already cultured bacteria was making the move also. I bet the real cycle would be almost non-existent...

Last edited by wake49; 10-17-2013 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:50 PM   #25 
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A fully planted tank is definitely not for me. I have trouble with plants. I dont have a green thumb, i have a black thumb. The only plant I have successfully kept alive is lucky bamboo. Thats why I just wanted to try a couple of moss balls and see how it went first.

The 5g is set up. It has gravel, moss balls, and one small silk plant that I had as a spare laying around. I also have the filter set up and running and have my small emergency heater in there didnt get really cold.

The 2.5g has my betta, gravel, two silk plants, a treasure chest he can hide in, a floating betta log, and the 25W hydor heater.

I do have an API Liquid test kit(I picked it up when I got the 5g). And I already use Prime (though I do use Stress Coat + in the 2.5g at the moment since my betta is tail biting and i've been using it to promote some regrowth)

Last edited by WhitneyLin; 10-17-2013 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:56 PM   #26 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wake49 View Post
Here is the thing with bacteria:

It is tiny. Microscopic.

I keep a saltwater tank and cycling to me is dumping a bag of sand in the tank. Fine, sugar sized sand.

You know why we keep such small granules of sand? Because of surface area. This may be hard to grasp, but 5 lbs of sand has more surface area than 5 lbs of rock. Since the bacteria grows on the exterior of the rock (this is only for all intents and purposes. Different bacteria actually grow inside the rock.), a ball of rock would only have the exterior area covered. Same goes with sand, except every single grain of sand is covered on the exterior with bacteria, therefore the same ball of sand is flooded with bacteria throughout!

I digress for this reason: when I setup a new tank and have an existing tank, I steal bacteria. I seriously just move fish from one tank to another, as long as decorations, gravel and filters make a simultaneous move. The empty glass tank in no way "needs" to be cycled, unless everything is brandy-new in it. Bacteria are excellent movers. Cycling is essentially the cultivation of bacteria that wasn't necessarily present before.

So when Hal suggested the "fish-in" cycle, I think he figured that most of your already cultured bacteria was making the move also. I bet the real cycle would be almost non-existent...

Sand *shudders* I dont know why, but I just dont like sand.

The old tank is uncycled. I have never done a cycle before. The current 2.5g tank gets 2-50% water changes and 1-85-90% water change (so I can leave him in the tank) every week.

So I dont think that their is much good bacteria in my tank. Though I will be testing it today, as today is a 50% change day.
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:02 PM   #27 
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Plants will throw off the cycling equation ^__^. If you keep a well planted tank you will almost certainly never see a cycle. Due to the fact that the bacteria colony will be competing with the plants for nutrients, you might end up with a very unstable colony of bacteria in a planted tank :) if what you are looking for is a STABLE cycle without doing a planted tank, I do advise to get a good steady cycle going before putting anything in. Realistically speaking, a moss ball shouldn't make a noticeable impact on the cycle as it is a slow growing moss species (slow growing = slow nutrient uptake).
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:49 PM   #28 
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OK, Whitney, I finally understand what you're doing and why. Sorry I was so dense.

Your plan, as suggested by Blue Fish, is solid. And I think you ought to carry it out just the way you see it. You have the right equipment and conditioners. You have the knowledge. I can see that. I'm sure it will go just fine.

Let us know if there's anything else we can do for you.
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:58 PM   #29 
wake49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhitneyLin View Post
Sand *shudders* I dont know why, but I just dont like sand.

The old tank is uncycled. I have never done a cycle before. The current 2.5g tank gets 2-50% water changes and 1-85-90% water change (so I can leave him in the tank) every week.

So I dont think that their is much good bacteria in my tank. Though I will be testing it today, as today is a 50% change day.
I'm sorry. I tend to be long-winded to drive home simple points.

I am not saying you should use sand. The bigger point was that everything in your tank has bacteria in it, and the smaller the objects (like gravel) the greater the potential for beneficial bacteria.

I just realized a good point. Gravel, in abundance, has more surface area than a cave decoration. They both have bacteria on them, but the gravel covers more square inches and therefore has the potential for more bacteria.

Filters are generally a good place for bacteria to form because of all the nutrient trapping that goes on in them. Fish waste and uneaten food essentially are being trapped by the media and breaking down allowing for a good place to cultivate bacteria.

Are you seeing Ammonia or NitrItes in your aquarium? The beneficial bacteria that is already present will be eliminating these and converting them into nitrates, which you alleviate through water changes. (this is where the Deep Sand Beds we use in the saltwater hobby come in beneficial, as they actually convert nitrates to nitrogen gas, so I essentially don't have to do water changes, and can maintain next to 0ppm nitrates...).

If you see zero Ammonia and NitrItes, then you have beneficial bacteria.
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Old 10-17-2013, 03:36 PM   #30 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aokashi View Post
Plants will throw off the cycling equation ^__^. If you keep a well planted tank you will almost certainly never see a cycle. Due to the fact that the bacteria colony will be competing with the plants for nutrients, you might end up with a very unstable colony of bacteria in a planted tank :) if what you are looking for is a STABLE cycle without doing a planted tank, I do advise to get a good steady cycle going before putting anything in. Realistically speaking, a moss ball shouldn't make a noticeable impact on the cycle as it is a slow growing moss species (slow growing = slow nutrient uptake).
Okay. Thanks for the info! I wont be doing a heavily planted tank. I just wanted to try a couple. I'll probably stick to mostly silk. Glad the moss balls wont impact my cycle.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallyx View Post
OK, Whitney, I finally understand what you're doing and why. Sorry I was so dense.

Your plan, as suggested by Blue Fish, is solid. And I think you ought to carry it out just the way you see it. You have the right equipment and conditioners. You have the knowledge. I can see that. I'm sure it will go just fine.

Let us know if there's anything else we can do for you.

No thats fine. It was really confusing with the situation changing. Im going to go along with cycling the 5g then. Thanks for all your help.
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