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Old 04-04-2014, 11:17 AM   #11 
amphirion
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Dragon scale is probably not even necessary either. Find a dark colored female with a bit of iridescence and red fins should do the trick. And yes, all babies will carry the orange gene although they will look red, and you can cross back to the father.
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Old 04-04-2014, 02:43 PM   #12 
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Ok cool so ill be on the lookout for a dark red female thank you so much, is there any chance of getting a different tail on him?
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Old 04-04-2014, 03:09 PM   #13 
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yeah, you're looking for something along the lines like this for a mate:

veil tail is dominant. dont expect anything more than that unfortunately, and unlike the color orange, it will take many generations before you find something that resembles a delta, or superdelta; halfmoons are even lower. it is better to start with halfmoons, deltas, or super deltas for tail types rather than start from scratch using a veil tail.

as others have already commented, veiltails are easily accessible and low demand fish, so the chances of you finding homes for those you dont have space for will be hard, unless you cull.
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Old 04-04-2014, 03:37 PM   #14 
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Aw thats a shame. Maybe ill hold off on that project then. Learned a lot already though. Since i have your attention let me ask another question, my friend has a male platinum black hmpk. How do they break down genetically, she said if i get a female she would let me breed them, maybe ill do that instead any ideas for that?
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Old 04-04-2014, 06:47 PM   #15 
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Slightly difficult to do since we don't know the parents. Can make a few guesses based on phenotype.

Red layer- unknown, certain combos could help intensify the black layer.
Black layer- also unknown, can be melano or superblack (superblack is apparently not solely dependent on the melano gene as superblacks can supposedly be crossed together and produce viable offspring)
Blue- usually steel blue + metallic. Metallic can be intensified if received by both parents instead of just one.

Melano and steel blue are recessive, metallic is dominant but linked to blue (possible to have a recessive metallic)

Possible black and blue combos:
B= normal black, b= melano
Bl= blue dominant, bl= blue recessive
+= metallic, o= non metallic

Keep in mind this is what I call them. Don't know the official names for the genes.

1) BB,bl+bl+
2) Bb,bl+bl+
3) BB,bl+blo
4) Bb,bl+blo
5) bb,bl+bl+
6) bb,bl+blo
And also vice versa where bl+ and blo switch places. All those possibilities are the theoretical possibilities of black platinum dragons.

Last edited by amphirion; 04-04-2014 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 04-04-2014, 07:15 PM   #16 
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Lol thats a lot to take in but thank you, im pretty excited to get started and learn more. After the offspring are grown are we able to completely know their gene code or do you learn as you go through many generations?
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Old 04-04-2014, 07:22 PM   #17 
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How many spawns have you done? How many surviving adults do you get on average after culling and everything
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Old 04-04-2014, 07:45 PM   #18 
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Unless you're working with fish with completely recessive traits, no you cannot tell exactly what genes are responsible for the traits of your fish. Color is just one part of the genetics-- we still haven't covered masks, branching, tail type, body type, etc. some of these traits could have the genetic resources but are enhanced or suppressed by the environment. However you can get a fairly accurate picture of the genetic traits your fish has. Unless they're mutts (like from a petstore) in which case you may end up receiving a wide gamut of every color and pattern possible. Very unpredictable.

I used to breed bettas for the heck of it as a kid--made tons of mistakes, usually ended up with 15-20 due to negligence. It's only recent where I decided to breed bettas again with the intention of purposefully crossing to gain a particular pattern. I also come from a biology background and worked as an engineer operating DNA sequencing systems, hence my particular fascination with betta genetics.

Last edited by amphirion; 04-04-2014 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 04-04-2014, 08:03 PM   #19 
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Wow perfect person to answer my thread haha im looking forward to coming to you for help once i actually get a hold of a few more fish i appreciate all the help. I have a lot of reading to do, do you have a good source for this kind of stuff or should i just ask when im curious about something
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Old 04-04-2014, 09:10 PM   #20 
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yep. this forum is a pretty decent place to start--look up tags and usually relevant threads will pop up.

stuff by Dr. Gene Lucas is pretty substantial with concern to betta colors and patterns. if you have a fair understanding of how genes work, understanding it should come easy.

another forum site, bettasource is good if you are serious about breeding for shows.

do keep in mind experience does trump theory. theory gives you statistical predictions, but you wont know until you actually do the "experiment". theory is clean cut, but more often than not, genetics proves messy simply because we havent accounted for every single variable.
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