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Old 05-26-2014, 03:15 PM   #1 
nel3
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Exclamation very severe SBD

my orange red VT Kurama has SBD issues ever sine I got him and its probably genetic. I was keeping him longterm in a 3.4g KK with 2tsp Epsom salt per gallon. originally I started with 1tsp per gallon but his SBD issues took atleast 4 days to look slightly swollen. he always swells up a bit when he eats a bit of food ie Hikari Micropellets. recently within the past 2 weeks I got advice from a member here that anything over 1tsp ES per gallon will dehydrate them in the long run so I cut down on the salt slowly I did 2-3L wc every 4 days to cut down the salt. though I might have cut it down a bit too much may 19th when I did a 9L wc and only put in 2.5tsp ES salt/1g.

his belly usually went down to slightly full within 3 days when he was in 2tsp/1g. with the reduced salt it hasn't dissipated but only swollen him up to the point it looks like his belly will explode I can see his belly is translucent on the bottom part. I admit I skimped on WC. the 3.4gKK was on the 2nd 50wc in a 3 50% wc in between 100wc. its been 10 and 7 days since I did a WC. I did remove 3L water on 16/5/14 and only added conditioned water and no ES salt.

I came in today to do a 50 WC to see him in a bad shape with a enlarged translucent belly as he lay floating on his side. the KK is heated. I immediately did a 100wc a few minutes ago and went right back to 2tsp ES salt per 1g as he never had such a pronounced translucent belly when there was a 2to 1 ratio of ES salt. ive added 1.4l 2ppm sediment water and some concentrated IAL water (600ml) as a normal water setup. ive put 3ml stress coat and 2 drops or prime in the water.

he has red inflamed gills though that's totally my fault for waiting too long between WC and not monitoring him properly.

is there anything in my diagnosis I missed? my best guess is he has too much water stored in his body. he's by no means less active than when he was in such a shape. I have pics of him though I have to recharge the batteries first as I don't use the camera too much so the battery tends to slowly run down. i'll post pics as soon as I can. his belly is bloated nearly a quarter inch from his body.

Last edited by nel3; 05-26-2014 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 05-26-2014, 03:23 PM   #2 
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I got he pics from the camera before the battery died. the curve in his back is simply because his tail section is hanging down below his body.
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Old 05-26-2014, 11:16 PM   #3 
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Yes, the curvature is because he's so bloated. Once the bloat is relieved, he should straighten out again.

I would try some metronidazole & praziquantel, such as API General Cure. This can help with parasites and anaerobic bacterial conditions. It's also a relatively mild treatment, so it doesn't put a lot of stress on the body.
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Old 05-27-2014, 06:52 AM   #4 
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thank you for the reply LBF, I just woke up a few minutes again and checked on my VT. that horrible bulge literally has totally disappeared overnight. now he just looks like his slightly bloated like usual.

I don't know why he has such a serious ongoing case of SBD. I put him on an ES solution within 4 weeks since his purchase. I knew he might have SBD issues from the way he was floating in his LPS jar. during his first 4 months I fed him every 4 days or so and let the bloat go down naturally.

my question is now what to do with his issues in the long term. this is the first time his belly got so alarmingly big and he never got this extreme in his first 4 months since purchase (9/8/13). it might be as he was still young.

will I need to use 1 dose of API general cure preventively and try again to get the ES down to 1.5tsp/1g? or do I have an exceptional case of bad genetics where larger than usual ratio or ES salt is needed to keep his bloating in line?

his gills are looking much better also.
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Old 05-27-2014, 01:51 PM   #5 
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What are the ingredients in the Hikari Micropellets? If there are a lot of grains/fillers, these might cause digestive issues.

Have you tried feeding him some live or frozen foods? These would give him a high protein diet that's highly digestible. (Avoid anything that's freeze-dried though!)

I would try some frozen daphnia, as they have a natural laxative effect. Once the weather warms up, if you can find live mosquito larvae, this would be an ideal food.

If live or frozen foods don't help, then it may be worth trying the API General Cure to see if it helps. Metronidazole/Praziquantel is a pretty mild treatment. It'll treat the majority of common parasites along with anaerobic bacterial infections. If it doesn't help, then just keep using Epsom salt, while trying to find the minimum effective dosage.

So here's what I would do:
1) Check the ingredients in the Hikari Micropellets to see if it contains a lot of grains/fillers.
2) Feed frozen or live foods. (But NOT freeze-dried ones!) Frozen/live daphnia or mosquito larvae would be ideal.
3) If all else fails, try a dose of API General Cure.
4) If needed, use Epsom salt, but try to determine the minimum effective dosage.
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Old 05-27-2014, 08:21 PM   #6 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueFishlets View Post
What are the ingredients in the Hikari Micropellets? If there are a lot of grains/fillers, these might cause digestive issues.

Have you tried feeding him some live or frozen foods? These would give him a high protein diet that's highly digestible. (Avoid anything that's freeze-dried though!)

I would try some frozen daphnia, as they have a natural laxative effect. Once the weather warms up, if you can find live mosquito larvae, this would be an ideal food.

If live or frozen foods don't help, then it may be worth trying the API General Cure to see if it helps. Metronidazole/Praziquantel is a pretty mild treatment. It'll treat the majority of common parasites along with anaerobic bacterial infections. If it doesn't help, then just keep using Epsom salt, while trying to find the minimum effective dosage.

So here's what I would do:
1) Check the ingredients in the Hikari Micropellets to see if it contains a lot of grains/fillers.
2) Feed frozen or live foods. (But NOT freeze-dried ones!) Frozen/live daphnia or mosquito larvae would be ideal.
3) If all else fails, try a dose of API General Cure.
4) If needed, use Epsom salt, but try to determine the minimum effective dosage.
ty for the reply LBF.
the first few indgredients in Hikari micropellets are: fish meal, wheat flour, flaked corn, brewers dried yeast, gluten meal, krill meal, spirulina. min 42% crude protein, crude fat min 4%, crude fiber max 3%, moisture max10%, Crude ash max 17% min 1.0%phosphorus.

I do have frozen brineshrimp in my freezer though not all my betta are too fond of that. some eat it some current and past didn't bother with it. I can find frozen daphnia in a LPS easily if needed be.

i'll continue with my 2tsp/1g dosage until his next 100c where i'll try 1.75tsp/1g. im not too sure if it'll be enough to keep his SBD in check but I don't think 1tsp/1g will work on my VT. if he gets an delayed time before his belly reduces with 1.75tsp then I might try API general cure before it gets to what I found him yesterday. 1.5tsp will need to wait for the result on 1.75tsp.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:59 PM   #7 
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can the body to tail width be signs of dehydration from Epsom salt? im not sure how much I could reduce the salt load to avoid that horrible balloon he got but i'll still try to reduce it a bit. I did just feed him so i'll try to get a pic of him when the belly goes down a bit. I usually feed him every day or 2 given the rate it takes for his belly size to reduce.
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Last edited by nel3; 06-01-2014 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 06-01-2014, 08:42 PM   #8 
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He isn't being fed much, so I wouldn't expect him to look "hefty." Also, if he has parasites, they'd be stealing a lot of his nutrition, which can cause weight loss, too.

I think that if he wasn't bloated, he'd look seriously underweight throughout his entire body. But since he's so bloated, is underweight condition is only noticeable at the tail-end.

I do think that you want to try to find the minimum effective dose of Epsom salt. (He's been at this dosage for about 2 weeks now?) But you may want to give metronidazole a try first. If he has a parasite issue, then metronidazole/praziquantel could help rid him of this.
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Old 06-01-2014, 08:52 PM   #9 
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Originally Posted by LittleBlueFishlets View Post
He isn't being fed much, so I wouldn't expect him to look "hefty." Also, if he has parasites, they'd be stealing a lot of his nutrition, which can cause weight loss, too.

I think that if he wasn't bloated, he'd look seriously underweight throughout his entire body. But since he's so bloated, is underweight condition is only noticeable at the tail-end.

I do think that you want to try to find the minimum effective dose of Epsom salt. (He's been at this dosage for about 2 weeks now?) But you may want to give metronidazole a try first. If he has a parasite issue, then metronidazole/praziquantel could help rid him of this.
thank you for the reply LBF
he's been back on 2tsp/1g since the 26th may after a 1-2 week stint that bordered on 1tsp/1g. hes due for a 50wc in a few days but i'll just go and do a 100wc and put him on 1.75tsp/1g.

would ES salt interfere with API general cure? he's hasn't gotten anything close to that horrible bubble since I put him back to 2tsp/1g. if its safe i'll just do a dose of API general cure for that upcoming WC. i'll go with 1.75/1

I know dehydration or parasite, the thin tail muscles wont go to normal within a few days. how long should I expect for the tail to go back to normal once the minimum ES slat dose and parasites ruled out/removed? would more frequent brine shrimp feedings also help him fill out?
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Old 06-01-2014, 08:58 PM   #10 
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I would keep using the Epsom salt while treating with API General Cure. It looks like he needs it to keep from bloating like a balloon. Poor little guy....

Yes, I think he'll stay thin like this until he's able to eat more. He's just not eating much, so he's really thin.

Can he tolerate the brine shrimp? If so, I would feed him that. He could use the nutrition.

I've never used it, but a lot of people on this forum recommend VitaChem. It's a vitamin/amino acid supplement that gets added directly to the water. (The ingredients looked fine to me.) The people who have used it reported good results. It's available through the Drs Foster & Smith website.
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