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Old 05-29-2014, 04:37 PM   #1 
Fenghuang
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Help with diagnosis?

Really worried about this girl. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Note: We removed her from the sorority because she was hiding and swimming funny (head down, tail up almost like SBD). We didn't notice the sore until a day after she was pulled and it has just gotten worse, so we don't think she got injured somehow.

Housing
What size is your tank? 1 gallon QT, was in 20L gallon NPT sorority tank up until two days ago
What temperature is your tank? 84 degrees Fahrenheit
Does your tank have a filter? Not currently, yes in sorority
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? None right now, was housed with other female bettas

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Omega One Betta Buffet Pellets
How often do you feed your betta fish? Every night, fast on the weekends

Maintenance
How often do you perform a water change? Daily right now, every 1-2 weeks in sorority
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 100 percent currently
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? API Stress Coat, Indian Almond Leaf

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters? Should be normal, water changes everyday

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity:

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Less colour, fins clamped, fuzzy wound on body, raised scales around affected area
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Less active, not as interested in food, hiding
When did you start noticing the symptoms? Two days ago
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? Yes, 2 tsp Epsom Salt, Kanaplex, Jungle's Fungus Clear tablet, Vitachem drops
Does your fish have any history of being ill? No
How old is your fish (approximately)? A little under a year, hatched July 16, 2013

Normal:


Currently:

Last edited by Fenghuang; 05-29-2014 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:39 PM   #2 
lilnaugrim
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Aww, the poor girl! Such a nasty wound!

You can try using a hydrogen peroxide bath or swab to help sterilize the wound. Here's the directions:

"Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment in the control of external parasites such as A.ocellatum, C.irritans and Brooklynella.

Applications:

1. 50-75ppm Bath for 30mins. Used as a disinfectant for newly acquired fish before adding to QT and DT.

2. 50-75ppm Bath for 30mins as a treatment for fish suffering from an infectious parasitic outbreak. Does not prevent recurrent outbreaks of A.ocellatum or C.irritans in an infected system, only provides temporary relief if returned to an infected system. Treated fish should be removed from the system and the infected system left fishless for a period no shorter than 28days in order to break the life cycle.

3. 50-75ppm Bath for 30mins every 3 days for a period no shorter than 28days. Used as a means of breaking the life cycle of parasitic protozoans such as A.ocellatum and C.irritans within an infected system whilst fish remain in the system. All fish within the system must be treated, regardless of whether an infection appears to be present.


Preparing a Hydrogen Peroxide Bath:

To achieve a 50ppm solution.
2 L of Water in a glass or stainless steel tank/container.
Add 3.4ml of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
Add fish and maintain for 30mins
Do not aerate the water during treatment.
Return fish to QT or DT immediately as applicable.

To achieve a 75ppm solution.
2 L of Water in a glass or stainless steel tank/container.
Add 5ml of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
Add fish and maintain for 30mins
Do not aerate the water during treatment.
Return fish to QT or DT immediately as applicable.

Please note, I've erred on the side of caution in my dosages preferring to use 50ppm/30mins as a general rule, many studies have shown longer and higher dosage rates are in common use and are effective. As this is relatively new in the aquarium industry and the effects on common aquarium species is unknown I have kept my dosages low. I initially trialled dosages of 75ppm which on it's first application on a severely infected fish seemed to cause some minor irritation, i interpreted this to be as a result of the density of open wounds exposed to the solution, on subsequent follow up treatments the fish did not show the same reaction.

Further potential applications lay in the control of Fungal outbreaks and external viral infections.

Treatment is applicable to both Freshwater and Saltwater pathogens.

Hydrogen Peroxide is an antibacterial, antifungal and antiviral and as such is NOT REEF SAFE. Treatments should be conducted in isolated baths.
It will kill algae, including coralline algae.

Hydrogen Peroxide is a caustic solution, it acts by oxidising cell walls, it is non toxic and completely breaks down to oxygen and water.

Evidence suggests that Hydrogen Peroxide aids in the the bodies natural immune system responses by signaling the convergence of white bloods cells resulting in a quicker healing process.

Hydrogen Peroxides oxidising reactions increase with temperature, higher temperatures require lower dosage rates, the above dosages were applied at 27C."
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Old 05-29-2014, 08:49 PM   #3 
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Thank you, Lilnaugrim. I think we are going to try the swab. I am just worried that it could be more than an injury from an another fish tank decoration though. Could a disease cause symptons like this?
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Old 05-29-2014, 09:02 PM   #4 
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The good news is that she is more active tonight and eating.

But picture of her above was today. These below are from last night.





Does her wound look worse? Video shows her wound tonight better.


Last edited by Fenghuang; 05-29-2014 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 05-30-2014, 08:21 AM   #5 
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Yes, a disease could cause something like this, I had a flesh eating case of Flexibacter Columnaris that ripped through my sorority. Some looked like her while most just had their fins deteriorate, some lost to Dropsy and some just plain up and died. I had relative success with the Hydrogen Peroxide baths and swabs, swabs used straight Hydrogen Peroxide where baths were diluted of course as per instructions. Hopefully you've caught her early enough to treat just fine, the pictures look better but the video still looks pretty nasty :-/ But she does look like she's acting better so keep on with that treatment!

What kind of decor do they have in the tank?
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Old 05-30-2014, 10:21 AM   #6 
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That is disheartening to hear. I'm sorry. I did remember reading some of your journal entries about that. Was there any other meds that helped?

We were so worried with this one girl that another one, Rusalki, did straight up died in the sorority tank. She was alive and swimming around just a little while before though. Her body was clean, although she was chronically bloated (not pineconing, but like she was eggy) prior to her death, and I mean for months now. And Selene died exactly ten days ago. She was the first female death (and only death in that tank) since Sena last October. Selene did not any visible symptoms either. She was just the lowest on the totem pole and her longer fins made her a bit of a target for fin nipping.

We have had a string of seemingly sudden male deaths, but they were all older so we chalked them up to weakened immune systems. But we have gone from 20+ to 12 since October.

The only decorations in the sorority tank are two pieces of driftwood, a few smooth river stones, and one of those plastic dinosaur heads. Any empty spaces were basically filled with live plants (hornworts, java fern, anubias, mosses, dwarf lily, swords, anarcharis, wisteria, aponogeton, duckweed). Substrate is a mixture of Eco-Complete and black sand.

We also have a juvenile BN pleco, maybe 3" long head to tail, corydoras, and snails. Sorority was stable. No more aggression than what you would expect and the most recent addition was the pleco in March.
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Old 05-30-2014, 10:32 AM   #7 
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Okay and was he QT'd for the proper amount of time? I do trust you guys to do that, but you know I have to ask.

It's possible they were all just old age or coincidences. Do they share equipment like hoses and such? Do you disinfect any of it at any time? How many remaining girls do you have and how are they looking at the moment? It may be beneficial for the sake of the girls to place them in their own tanks, the high stress is most likely to be thanked for the girl deaths. Even if they do not display or you do not see the aggression, aggression still exists. Kind of like the passive-aggressive people; you may not see it right away but surely someone is stressing out over that person and their passive-aggressive ways. Same thing happens with these girls, they can communicate in ways that we do not fully see and that can lead to a lot of stress, as I'm sure you know most of this.
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Old 05-30-2014, 11:53 AM   #8 
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Not for as long as he should have been. I really should have known better. Plecos don't usually show signs of disease as quickly as other fish...

We try our best not to cross-contiminate. Tanks were cleaned and left to sit after each death. We emptied all the tanks and bleached everything after the initial sudden death (the 20L sorority tank wasn't set up until some time after) and a few other occasions as precautions and had been using separate cups during water changes for everyone.

The sudden boy deaths were spread out enough, maybe one every 2-3 months, that they could very well be coincidence. We also lost a few through very clear causes (Moo and a breeding pair in a shipping mishap; Hyperion killed by Zephyr when a divider got knocked over by a cat; Valefar who straight up slipped through a divider and got fatally injured by Viserion; and Paimon who was isolated from the start developed a cyst/tumor and passed away) so it wasn't like they all died out of the blue.

The remaining seven females in the tank look fine like always, but I know looking fine isn't everything. The tank is getting dismantled and will be given another thorough cleaning for all the build up plant matter, but isolating everyone would be difficult. Two of our 10 gallons are out of commission because one got broken by the darn cats while it was left out waiting to be cleaned and the other one is leaking from somewhere. Same with two of our smaller tanks. The girls would have to be jarred and there aren't enough heaters to go around. That would most likely stress them more.

Last edited by Fenghuang; 05-30-2014 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 05-30-2014, 12:04 PM   #9 
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Okay, well at least the other deaths weren't out of the blue or I'd suspect something like Myco which I would hope never touches your girls or boys! It's always in the water but won't attack until the fish is compromised prior, which is always a possibility in sororities that aren't sisters of course and even still, sister sororities aren't fool proof.

Can you get a large-ish storage bin, fill with enough water to put a heater in and then place the jars in that or float them in cups? That could be one solution for you guys at the moment while the tank gets cleaned.

As for meds that helped, I think KanaPlex helped but in the end I really don't know. But if the girl seems to be responding well to what you have in there, just keep on trudging along with it and with daily Hydrogen Peroxide swabs or baths. I found the swabs were more effective but a little more stressful for the girl since you kind of have to hold her still without hurting her of course. I had it a little more difficult since her wound was closer to the eye and you ideally shoulnd't get it in the gills or the eyes/mouth area. So holding in a net and swabbing the wound with the straight Hydrogen Peroxide should help sterilize it and hopefully stimulate growth after that.
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Old 05-30-2014, 12:24 PM   #10 
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I pray it's not Myco... But I imagine that would manifest itself much faster in a high-stress situation like that. Half the females are biological sisters.

Maybe float the girls in cups in the 20L? We are dosing them with Kanaplex right now. We are wary and treated every tank with meds since the marble got sick.

Btw, thanks a lot, Lilnaugrim. We are really grateful for all your advice.
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